Is Avid too complex for my 15yr old?

My 15 yr old son lives, breathes, and eats movie making. I'm really impressed with some of the work he has done using Pinnacle Studio and our Canon MinDV recorder.

However, he has really reached the limits of Studio and we would like
to upgrade to a camcorder with better quality and capabilities.

I like the idea of the Avid product line as I think it will give him a skill that he "sell" in the future. I'm not sure that will be the case with
Pinnacle Liquid or Adobe Premiere. I'm also worried that Liquid may not be around for long - it does appear to be a good value for the time being.

I'm concerned that if the learning curve is too great for Avid, he may abandon it for his lesser, more familiar tools.

We have always been a PC house but I'm not tied to it. He's doing some
painting for me to earn money this summer so we are planning a new video editing system from the gound up including PC, camera, and software.

Any suggestions?

Thank you for your thoughts!

Don't underestimate a teenager even though they at times seem to do dumb things. I did not see the so called "learning curve" problem in my brief encounter with Avid a few years ago, they are about equally difficult for me to start out with and they all require a bit of studying when you want to perform complex editing.

Avid does have a free editor Avid Free DV (http://www.avid.com/freedv/) which costs nothing but a download however it does have some limitations, one being that it only saves as .MOV files.

I would also look at Vegas 6 and would still not discount Adobe Premiere. I don't want to start a "this is better that" discussion so I won't say what I use. All three are very capable.

Also there are also some fantastic discounts for legitimate students which you might consider.



Rich

Thank you.

I think ultimately he will become compentent at whatever we get. He has very specific ideas of what he wants to do and the current software just doesn't do it or is too buggy.

I have an investment (not huge) in a SCSI RAID controller and drives
for our current editing system, so I *think* I will stick with a PC, however, I haven't ruled out FCP.

If this questions is reasonable; if he were to learn one system, which would give him the best opportunities in the future?

I think ultimately he will become compentent at whatever we get. He has very specific ideas of what he wants to do and the current software just doesn't do it or is too buggy.I can understand buggy. Any of the top software will do most jobs. As complex and capable as today's software is I can't think of anything that one can do that the others can't.



If this questions is reasonable; if he were to learn one system, which would give him the best opportunities in the future?I really can't answer that. Learning concepts and good work flow procedures seems more important to me than learning keystrokes on one individual system.


Rich

When I say limited, I'm referring to our current Pinnacle Studio product.
There are numerous things he wants to do but can't at the moment - multiple video streams, green-screen, etc.

Another question - are RAID 0 SATA drive configurations considered fast enough for Avid Express? I 've invested in an Ultra-SCSI RAID 0 but I'm perpetually frustrated by the premium price SCSI demands.

If your son has reached the limits of Pinnacle and spends considerable amount of time and energy in this venture I'd say go for it.

I wouldn't worry about the complexity. If it turns out to be difficult to learn, I think it will work in his favor since it will help develop problem solving and learning skills. This is never a bad thing. I also wouldn't worry about what specific software will be the "future", this type of thing is always subject to change. What matters most is understanding the basic concepts of film making and most important creativity and the drive to make it happen.

If you haven't already, look into getting some good books on understanding filming techniques and the movie making process. Software is just a means to an end. Helping your son understand how films are made will be a step in the right direction.

BTW IDE RAID is plenty fast for video editing. So long as you have plenty of disk you should be fine.

Mike

I am going to make this quick. Most video production colleges use either Final Cut Pro or Avid. It is because most TV stations and lots of documentaries are being put together using either these two products. Believe me the earlier he uses Final Cut Pro or Avid the better. Also most broadcasting jobs will only accept people who know how to edit well on those products. I myself wish I knew how to use Final Cut Pro a few years ago because I would have became rich right now.

I will also point out that if you have a Mac with a G5 in it then its best to get Final Cut Pro instead. Both of these are still the best in the business. I couldn’t fully explain earlier in my last post because I was busy. Keep in mind that instead of your son going to a beginner’s course in either Final Cut Pro or Avid, he will be placed in an intermediate course in those programs. He will also need a 1.5 to a 3 minute wheel on DVD that has all of his best work. By the time he graduates their will be a very stiff competition in his field but at least companies will prefer him over everybody else because his wheel will look better than all of the other students.

When all is said and done, he will not only have a great looking portfolio but also have a far greater advantage than most people getting into the field. To make a long story short, your son may not notice, but it is in his best interest to get either Final Cut Pro or Avid and keep in mind that only the top of the line Avid software can compete with Final Cut Pro.

P.S. I hope I convinced you.

Another question - are RAID 0 SATA drive configurations considered fast enough for Avid Express? I 've invested in an Ultra-SCSI RAID 0 but I'm perpetually frustrated by the premium price SCSI demands.

I do not think SCSI is really needed these days, you might want to read through some of these articles:

DIY1 - Videoguys Challenge Build your own NLE computer for under $1,000
DIY2 - Big Blue - Build an NLE Hot Rod for $2,000
DIY3 - Dual Processor Workstation for real-time HDV editing for $3,000

http://www.videoguys.com/article.htm


Rich

I got another suggestion that might be helpful to you. I mentioned Final Cut Pro in my other post. This is because to me it’s probably the best non-linier editing software in the world. There is one catch thou. It is only for the Mac. Believe me their have been many complaints to Apple for not releasing it to Windows. This caused a lot of Windows users to switch to Mac, besides the fact that every body can agree on, Mac is much more secure to go online with.
It may be asking for much to switch but believe me, your son will get used to it. I myself freaked out that I will be learning PowerPoint on a Mac in college and I ended up with a 95 for my project. Not bad for someone who never used a newer Mac other than the old ones that my elementary school had.

The Macs that are out there will impress you, including a Dual 2.7 gigahertz G5 version with standard dual layer DVD burning. Also the resale value is much better than any windows computer. It’s also liquid-cooled. This will make your applications run a lot smother. Make sure you ask about the student discount because you will receive 300 dollars off on the top of the line G5 model as well as discounts on other products and on the plus side Final Studio which includes Final Cut Pro HD, Motion 2, DVD Studio Pro 4, and Soundtrack Pro combined in a package are selling for a price of 699 dollars. Every body else needs to get it at around 1299 dollars. You save an incredible 600 dollars.

Just remember this, I originally hated Macs but they have evolved big time to the fact that not even the most powerful Dell computer can come any where close to the specs of the top of the line Mac.

After all of these years I'm convinced this will end up being my sons vocation, not just a hobby.

Thanks for all of the great insight. I think I will check into the FCP and Mac student discounts. I don't want to start a MAC-PC war here, but it would be (possibly a welcome) change to try the "other side".

We are planning on making this a dedicated video system so I'm not that concerned about not having my legacy PC software on the new machine.

What is the best way to get a MAC? CompUSA carries them (I'm not sure they give the educational discount) but they seem to have packages - I'm not sure what the drive situation is on those packages. Do I just go through Apple? Are there any legitimate deals out there?

I'm going to want loads of HDD. We already have ~200GB of RAID SCSI projects that "we can't archive just yet...". Is the MAC implementation of RAID the same as PC? I assume it is.... I'll check out the threads mentioned by "poncho"


Thanks again!

The best way to get a Mac is through the Apple Online Store because this allows you to have Apple upgrade it for free. If you have questions you can call Apple at 1-800-MY-APPLE. And here is a direct link to the education section of the Apple website http://store.apple.com/1-800-780-5009/WebObjects/EducationIndividual?type=k12.

I have another suggestion to give you. If his High School videotapes the Football games like mine did then he should volunteer to do it as well. This is the way I got started, by becoming the first person in my High School to volunteer. I will admit that because I was a student, I wasn’t allowed to videotape the actual playing of the game itself but at least I videotaped the Band playing during the Half Time and so my name was in the credits at the end. I also videotaped and edited a Track Meet. All of these were put on TV.
There are also programs for young teenagers where your son can attend. This will also allow him to have credits in those projects as well. This will almost guarantee that he gets into the beat colleges because they will be very impressed by what he has achieved. The only other thing he will need is good grades. If his grades aren’t good then you should take him to some of the hardest colleges that have Broadcasting courses. By the time he gets impressed at what he will see, he will want to increase his grades.

Make sure once he gets the hang of it, have him take an Apple certified course in Final Cut Pro. He doesn’t have to be in college to do this but you still need to pay about 200 dollars. This will make him “Final Cut Pro certified”. It will make his resume more attractive.

At Least you can install both Final Cut Pro and Avid on a Mac. This may sound expensive but it is a plus.

I was out of town a few days with no internet access (!!!)

Thank you for the ideas. He has already put together an end of the year video for the track team and is now being asked to do things for teachers, which we have to watch because of the times involved.

Grades are OK, but he was trying alot harder the end of this year. In part I think because he has been doing more with seniors (friendships made through two school plays that he was in) and he sees them heading off to college bringing some reality to the whole grade situation.

I really appreciate all of the input. I realize this has somewhat gotten off of the Avid forum focus. At this point we are going to find FCP on a local system and Avid and "play" a little bit before making a final decision.

I am going to admit that I do get carried away when I try to help someone. After looking back at all of the stuff that I wrote, I am going to be more reasonable. Avid or Final Cut Pro is basically in the same level anyway. So which ever you choose, their both winners.

I dont think Avid is too hard for your 15 year old. If he can read, and his comprehension is high enough, then he should be able to follow the included manuals and work through the tutorials. After those, i'm sure he'll better understand the program, and will use it with as much efficiency as the others he used.

"Another question - are RAID 0 SATA drive configurations considered fast enough for Avid Express?"

I'm using one non-RAID SATA drive with Xpress Pro HD and I can even edit a single track of DNxHD-185 without obvious problems... which amazed me. For DV there should be no reason even to need RAID, I can do four picture-in-picture effects on one track with one SATA drive.

Otherwise, Avid's not that 'hard' to use, it's just a bit different: it was designed for people who were used to sticking bits of film together with tape, rather than designed for people who are used to using a computer.

Also, you can probably get a big discount on Xpress Pro through the education schemes. I presume Apple would have something similar for FCP?

It just amazes me how expensive UltraSCSI drives remain. 400GB approx $900 each!

I think my new machine (if I go the PC route) will be SATA RAID 0.

I'm still working on the pros/cons of three different possibilities:

1) AVID Express HD with a high-end PC configuration. My worry here is the stability/reliability of the Avid-PC configuration. We are frustrated with the unstable performance of our current PC-Pinnacle Studio configuration even though I chose hardware recommended by Pinnacle. This is a medium cost alternative and should provide a skill level that I think my son will benefit from in the long run.

2) Mac with FCP HD. My impression is that this would be the most stable platform although at a preium price. I guess I'm willing to pay that price if it means I won't be up at 2am trying to figure out why the system keeps crashing. My impression also is FCP will provide him with a skill that will make him more marketable. I'm a little put-off by the impending Intel-Apple alliance; I feel the current hardware is already "old" although I see no price drops coming??

3) PC-Pinnacle Liquid. The least expensive alternative with what appears to be reasonable capabilities and a familiar interface that will alow us to keep his old projects. It sounds as though Liquids days may be numbered, though (Avid buyout?) and I'm worried about the stability of the platform.

I realize there are many other options but this is what I'm considering.

"My worry here is the stability/reliability of the Avid-PC configuration"

4.6 was basically 100% stable, I don't remember a single crash: the only real issue I had was that occasionally it would stop displaying the preview when capturing video and then produce an error message, and I'd have to do the capture a second time.

5.1 has been rather less stable: I even had a total lockup that required me to reboot the machine. It does seem that any x.0 or x.1 release from Avid is a bit buggy, the early 4.x releases had some problems too. There should be a new release before long, hopefully that will be back to the stability level of 4.6.

"My impression also is FCP will provide him with a skill that will make him more marketable."

If he wants to work in editing then either Avid or FCP experience will be beneficial. Some people think that FCP will take over from Avid in the mid-range and high-end, but I'm not convinced... lower down there are a lot of people using FCP who'd probably have been using Avid five years ago.

Im 15 and i recently bought with my twin a mac g4 with Final cut express a week later we bought the sony dsr pd170. The final cut express is complicated at first but the more you use it the better you become at it.A 20 min.training dvd came with it and that helped a lot. Im sure your son is the same way. :)

Mike Carberry/a 15 year old

Thank you!

I've run the numbers and I think I will end up jumping ship to the Apple platform. Not sure, yet re FCP or Avid.

What you can do is to go to a college that you son is interested in and see which type of software they have and match it. Hopefully it’s not like my college that has dual G5 Macs with both Final Cut Pro and Avid. In this case than its best to get both installed in the same computer so that he can learn the best of both worlds. :)

I hope you won’t mind the price. :eek:

Well, think of it this way. If you get a Mac, you can get Final Cut Pro and Avid. I realize it might be expensive right now, so choose one, buy it start a little home editing business, make a few $$ buy avid xpress dv for $550.

I am 15 too, and have been using premiere pro for about 1 year. When I first opened fcp at the apple store (hopefully purchasing a mac soon) I felt "at home" it was basically the same interface as premiere. Only differences being where to find things like which menu you choose to find xx feature. FCP and Premiere are very similar so you could also try premiere out. Avid on the other hand is quite a bit different, it requires a little more training. It seems like the only reason they are there still is because they were first so now everyone is used to it. My advice: buy a mac, you can get a free mini ipod by mail in rebate + $200-$300 off for students. Also they offer $100 rebate on some printers.
Update: I purchased a power mac g5 dual 2ghz recently, and there was a defect. It sounded like a jet engine after booting-up the second time, many people have been having this problem so I am not sure what to tell you. You might want to try going to your local compusa and see if they have any of the old G5's manufactured before December '04 because apple made a bad batch in dec 04 due to a small hardware change, but they are still not admitting it. However, some of them DO work so it's a chance you may or may not want to take. What my dad did was told another customer about all of this, and because of this, right before the guy was going to buy a $3000 power mac g5 along with $500 worth of software (they had the huge box and everything stacked right next to the register) he decided not to buy it. There you go apple, you just lost more than $5000 to one customer. After that I got 100% of my money back. If you are pushy enough almost any store will give you back your money if it's for a good reason.

I've really rethough the HD route given what cameras area vailable right now. The JVC GY-HD100 is still an unknown but may remain so for awhile.
Given SD video I'm not sure I would need as robust of a machine as I had expected for HD. Anyway, the good thing about MAC is that I can run either Avid or FCP - could switch down the raod if I wanted to without as big a hit $ wise.

Let me know if you have any problems with your mac.

As for which HD camcorder to get, to go along with your computer you don’t have to get the more expensive models when Sony is releasing one in about a week for 1999 dollars. The good news is that I know an authorized dealer that will be selling the camcorder for around 1500 dollars with full USA warrantee. I will post the dealer once I get my hands on one of those because I don’t want them to be out of stock by the time I get the money to buy one.

I'm 16 years old and I have Avid Xpress Pro. I don't know how to use the software but i'm determined to learn it's aspects. As soon as I can find a good Avid tutorial book. I couldn't find out how to capture video from my all in wonder card until 1 hour into browsing the software. It's not a software where you can just jump into right away.

Well I am another teenager here (17 years old). But I myself just started to use Liquid Edition just recently. After spending a couple of hours reading a tutorial book, I could do all of the basics. I am totally satisfied with LE, no doubt about it that Avid is great, but LE offers in my opinion a cleaner interface and great performance which is why I chose it... Right now I am editing a multicamera wedding I filmed last weekend. Pinnacle is working like a charm, it saves by itself 30 times a second and has awesome filters and transitions.

In my opinion a dedicated 15 year old can easily learn any program he wants. I also think no matter which program you buy for your kid all of them would be beneficial because at the core every pro-NLE is the same. The basic functions are always there but some aspects of the program may be have different names for example "Racks" in Pinnacle are known as folders in other programs. Get your son pinnacle for 230$ @ academicsuperstore.com and put the rest of the money towards an HD camcorder.

Oh and by the way as far as I know (I am not too sure about this) if you buy an educated discount version of Final Cut you will not be able to upgrade to a commercial version (unlike other programs).