Pros and Cons of SD Camcorder

Personally I picked SDR-S100 because ...
- time-saving not to capture from tape (main reason)
- easy and quick to record/view/delete file by file
- small size (someone might consider it too small to hold)
- not affected by vibration
- DVD quality is acceptable (very good to me on TV screen)

I must accept some disadvantages
- noise issue in low light (for 1/6" 3CCD)
- SD is very expensive compared with tape, DVD disc
- editing aspect - not convenient, ... (I'm not sure about this after I tried Womble. I think it's very easy to work with.)
- still picture quality if fair (mainly I use DSLR for still pictures)

A friend of mine asked me if SD camcorder is good. Since years ago I only had little experience with MiniDV (that's why I wanna save time not to capture from tape). Could anyone help me summarize all pros and cons of SD camcorder compared with MiniDV cam, DVD cam and HDD cam ? I would appreciate.

I found this info from Panasonic but it's too short.
panasonic.co.jp/pavc/global/videocamera/n_america/media.html (http://panasonic.co.jp/pavc/global/videocamera/n_america/media.html)

Interesting page, have never seen it before and I disagree with the recording times, or at least they are misleading.

Also, depending on the context, SD more often means Standard Definition which all those cameras provide versus High Definition Video.

Just a select few MiniDV vs DVD threads:


miniDV tapes VS miniDVD (05-29-2006) (http://www.camcorderinfo.com/bbs/t127090.html)
PLEASE HELP! DVD vs. Mini DV? (04-06-2006) (http://www.camcorderinfo.com/bbs/t125564.html)
DVD403 with PE 2.0 problems with finished DVD(02-26-2006) (http://www.camcorderinfo.com/bbs/t124331.html)
DVD Recorder / Player (02-21-2006) (http://www.camcorderinfo.com/bbs/showpost.php?p=158833&postcount=4)
DVD vs DV (02-19-2006) (http://www.camcorderinfo.com/bbs/t124105.html)
DVD camcorder vs. MiniDV camcorder (06-26-2005) (http://www.camcorderinfo.com/bbs/t116795.html)
DVD Recorder (05-08-2005) (http://www.camcorderinfo.com/bbs/showpost.php?p=129410&postcount=6)
DVD403 and HC90 Good MiniDVD comment (04-09-2005) (http://www.camcorderinfo.com/bbs/t114799.html)
Please help, want to buy DVD Camcorder but so confused -even after reading reviews! (A Good MiniDVD comment) (12-15-2004) (http://www.camcorderinfo.com/bbs/t110220.html)
MiniDV or DVD?? HELP please!!!! (10-30-2004) (http://www.camcorderinfo.com/bbs/t108530.html)
DVD Vs MiniDV continued (10-10-2004) (http://www.camcorderinfo.com/bbs/t107925.html)
MiniDV vs DVD cam - Another Option (10-10-2004) (http://www.camcorderinfo.com/bbs/t107911.html)
mini dvd vs mini dv (10-08-2004) (http://www.camcorderinfo.com/bbs/t107845.html)
MiniDV or DVD camcorder? ( 09-20-2004) (http://www.camcorderinfo.com/bbs/t107826.html)
Need advice 1st camcorder - DVD? (09-18-2004) (http://www.camcorderinfo.com/bbs/t107249.html)
DVD vs MiniDV 08-29-2004 (http://www.camcorderinfo.com/bbs/t106497.html)
Advantage vs mini dv? (04-04-2004) (http://www.camcorderinfo.com/bbs/t56374.html )


Discussions regarding hard drive, memory based and MiniDV camcorders:

HDD vs Mini DV tape conversion to DVD-Quality? 05-30-2006 (http://www.camcorderinfo.com/bbs/t127117.html)
EVERIO GZ image quality 05-25-2006 (http://www.camcorderinfo.com/bbs/t126988.html)
Editing Your MPEG2 Files, Shooting in Mixed Formats 05-02-2006 (http://www.camcorderinfo.com/bbs/t126310.html)
Sony DCR-SR100 first impressions 04-26-2006 (http://www.camcorderinfo.com/bbs/t126133.html)
Hard drive vs. tape camcorders 04-03-2006 (http://www.camcorderinfo.com/bbs/t125431.html)
Comparison test of nine MPEG2 cameras 02-24-2006 (http://www.camcorderinfo.com/bbs/t124273.html)
HDD vs tape 01-19-2006 (http://www.camcorderinfo.com/bbs/t123271.html)
Panasonic AV100 - General ? 01-03-2006 (http://www.camcorderinfo.com/bbs/t122801.html)



Rich

Hi
I have made a lot of researches before I decided to buy the SDR-S100.
That's why I bought it:
-very small,very compact but the power of 3CCD and same optics than GS250. Have it always with me in my jacket-pocket.
-solid state, no tapes, no mechanical drive, no rewinding,fast access to the individual clips.
-fast download to PC
-editing of mpeg2 material is no problem for me, video quality is superb even if clips need to be reencoded to mpeg2.
-SDR-S100's SP-mode(6Mbps) has acceptable video quality for me, therefore I have a recording time of about 55min per 2GB card.
This is still my biggest problem:
I haven't found a good backup strategy yet.
This is the biggest advantage of miniDV but it seems to be a big problem for tapeless products: How do you archive your movies that these data are available even after 30years or more. Just burning them onto DVD-R is not a long-term solution. I think same is true for DVD-RAM or harddisks. A solution could be either DVD-R gold media(more expensive) or MO media(magneto optical, even more expensive). I am still looking for a solution here.
Hope that helps

Thank you Guys for sharing.

Rich, I could't find any direct discussion about SD/CF camcorder with others. Mostly, I've found two popular topics "MiniDV or DVD" and "MiniDV or HDD". If there was the comparisons of "MiniDV vs DVD vs HDD vs flash card" camcorders in many aspects, it would be nice.

sektionschef, even for tape, there're many risks (http://www.arts.state.tx.us/video/risks.asp) for long-period archive. Once artifacts happen, it's very difficult to be removed. Next year, my early image-backup CD-R's will be 4 years old. I'm considering to migrate them into DVD-R for another 4-5 years before move them into Blu-ray or HD-DVD discs after that.

If you need 30-50 years storage life without any data migration I woud recommend gold DVD-R like MAM-A (http://mam-a.com/Archive_gold_image.html), Delkin (http://www.delkin.com/shop/product.php?productid=205&cat=62) or Kodak (http://www.kmpmedia.com/kodak-gold.html). Make 2 copies of each one and store them in different locations.

Rich, I could't find any direct discussion about SD/CF camcorder with others. Mostly, I've found two popular topics "MiniDV or DVD" and "MiniDV or HDD". If there was the comparisons of "MiniDV vs DVD vs HDD vs flash card" camcorders in many aspects, it would be nice.
Not many discussions that I recall. MiniDV and DVD camcorders are fixed formats (but different formats and media).

HDD and memory cards can be any format the manufacturer desires.

If you haven't noticed I am a MiniDV fan but have tried to be objective in my views. The type of video shooting, editing I do and familiarity I have with the format makes MiniDV or even Digital8 the best choice for me however I do try to look at future advances and will eventually have to switch. For me right now, the time has not yet arrived.



Rich

If you haven't noticed I am a MiniDV fan but have tried to be objective in my views.

Yes Rich. I did notice from you replies in the links you provided. I understand well that one format might not serve everyone well. When I take still pictures with DSLR, I'll prefer RAW format over JPEG due to many reasons such as 12-bit color (vs 8bit JPEG), adjustable white balance, higher quality editing and etc. However, the pain of RAW format are the file conversion, huge file size (2-3 times of JPEG). Have I recommended RAW to everyone ? Absolutely not ;) only if they're serious and have time.

When I turned to VDO, if I chose MiniDV it would have been a nightmare for me after a trip...... still pictures -> RAW conversion & editing , VDO -> capture & edit & encode & burn DVD.... oh... quite a time-consuming job !

So I decided to save some time not to capture from tape (and also some encoding time). I can live with DVD quality (MPEG2 compression with bitrate under 10 Mbps). That's my main objective. However, when a friend asked me about the camcorder I'm using, I'd like to tell her a full picture of it. I don't wanna persuade others to use SD camcorder like I do without let them know both sides completely. :)

Btw, I've compiled some infomation about the comparison of MiniDV, DVD, HDD and flash card camcorders. Anyone, please feel free to comment or add any point. Thank you in adv.


-------------------------------------
General Comparison of Consumer Camcorders v1.3

-------------------------------------
MiniDV Camcorder
SD format : DV
HD format : HDV (MPEG2)*
media : DV/miniDV tape

Advantages
- mature format
- higher video quality than DVD/MPEG2 format
- low price miniDV camcorder is available
- many software support DV editing

Disadvantages
- slow to view the footage (tape is needed to rewinded or forwarded)
- accidental recording over the recorded content is possible
- time consuming when transfer to PC (real-time capture over firewire)
- huge file size (after capture) = 13 GB per one-hour footage

* HDV Camcorder records on the DV / miniDV tape
-------------------------------------
DVD Camcorder
SD format : DVD/MPEG2
HD format : AVCHD (MPEG4)
media : miniDVD / DVD discs (various types)

Advantages
- very convenient - the recorded disc can be instantly played on DVD players or PC (some DVD players / DVD drives might not support miniDVD disc)
- quick to view the footage

Disadvantages
- the capacity of miniDVD disc is pretty low
- might take time to format or finalize disc
- shock/vibration might introduce artifacts

-------------------------------------
HDD Camcorder
SD format : MPEG2
HD format : AVCHD (MPEG4)
media : built-in harddrive

Advantages
- very high capacity typically 20-30 GB
- fast transfer to PC
- quick to view & delete the footage

Disadvantages
- shock/vibration might introduce artifacts
- shock/vibration might cause problems with the recording harddrive

-------------------------------------
Flash-card Camcorder
SD format : MPEG2, MPEG4
HD format : AVCHD (MPEG4)
media : SD card, CF card, Memory Stick

Advantages
- small size
- fast transfer to PC
- quick to view & delete the footage
- solid-state media - no moving parts (except using CF type II such as Microdrive) - very high shock resistance, low power consumption

Disadvantages
- flash card is expensive
- the maximum capacity of flash card is currently around 4GB for SD card, 8GB for CF card and 4GB for Memory Stick (still increasing)
-------------------------------------

G A P, I generally agree with your "General Comparison of Consumer Camcorders v1.0" and I am pretty much generally in agreement with your comments with the following exceptions:

-------------------------------------
"MiniDV Camcorder - accidental recording over the recorded content is possible" - That is possible with all the media except perhaps some of the DVD camcorders depending on which DVD format you are using. Ironically you list "quick to view & delete the footage" as a Pro for HDD Camcorder which could very easily lead to accidental deleting of recorded content.

"Flash-card Camcorder - Cons - the maximum capacity of flash card is currently around 4GB (still increasing)" - Some cameras capable of recording video are limited to 1 GB or 2 GB. I am not aware of any currently available consumer Flash-card Camcorders which will record 4 GB of video.

-------------------------------------

For the large part many of the Pros and Cons could fall into various categories for me such as:
1. Yes
2. It's not an issue with my work flow.
3. It's not a factor in my desires.



Rich

Rich, thanks for your comment.

G A P, I generally agree with your "General Comparison of Consumer Camcorders v1.0" and I am pretty much generally in agreement with your comments with the following exceptions:

-------------------------------------
"MiniDV Camcorder - accidental recording over the recorded content is possible" - That is possible with all the media except perhaps some of the DVD camcorders depending on which DVD format you are using. Ironically you list "quick to view & delete the footage" as a Pro for HDD Camcorder which could very easily lead to accidental deleting of recorded content.

As I understand, for miniDV, it's possible for user to record over the recorded footage without warning, right ? Please correct if I misunderstand. However as I listed "quick to view delete the footage" in HDD & flash card camcorder, that means when we switch to view mode, we can choose which file we want to delete. In record mode, as I know, it's impossible to record over the old files since the camcorder will record on the available space.

For flash card, there're many software to recover the deleted files that are not recorded over yet. I don't know about the case of HDD camcorder.

"Flash-card Camcorder - Cons - the maximum capacity of flash card is currently around 4GB (still increasing)" - Some cameras capable of recording video are limited to 1 GB or 2 GB. I am not aware of any currently available consumer Flash-card Camcorders which will record 4 GB of video.

As I know, JVC GZ-MC500 can record 4GB of video onto CF / SD card. New upcoming flash card camcorders are gonna support the capacity of 4GB or more. I think the 2GB limit is caused by FAT16 file system. If the camcorder supports FAT32, it can support the capacity higher than 2GB. However the file size is still limited to 4GB. That's why HDD camcorder creates the new MPEG2 files once the recording file size reaches 4GB.

I consider the currently available 4GB card as an disadvantage because it's pretty low compared with HDD camcorder. But the price of many HDD camcorders are lower than of flash card camcorder.

Please kindly suggest if I should add or rewrite any point to be precise and less confusing. Thanks again :)

As I understand, for miniDV, it's possible for user to record over the recorded footage without warning, right ? Please correct if I misunderstand.
That is correct.

However that falls into my category:
2. It's not an issue with my work flow.
3. It's not a factor in my desires.

I normally do not reuse my MiniDV tapes. They are one of my permanent video archives.

Just here at CCI over the last two years I can only recall about two instances where people have recorded over footage accidently. I have seen many more cases of people dropping and breaking their camcorder. I have also seen many more cases of people having their camcorder stolen. And of course many people whose camcorders of all brands which just quit working.


However as I listed "quick to view delete the footage" in HDD & flash card camcorder, that means when we switch to view mode, we can choose which file we want to delete. In record mode, as I know, it's impossible to record over the old files since the camcorder will record on the available space.

For flash card, there're many software to recover the deleted files that are not recorded over yet. I don't know about the case of HDD camcorder.It should be impossible to record over files that have not been deleted. But once a files attributes are set as deleted the filename is changed and the file sectors remain are are available to be overwritten. That is why it is important to attempt to recover deleted files before writting any new data.


As I know, JVC GZ-MC500 can record 4GB of video onto CF / SD card.You are correct. Although JVC calls it a hard drive in some of their literature:[b]"The new GZ-MC500 Digital Media Camera is the newest member of the JVC Everio family - the only currently available camcorders that record onto a hard disk. Like the single-CCD Everio camcorders launched last fall, the GZ-MC500 records 60 minutes of DVD-quality video or thousands of photo-quality stills to a Microdrive® removable hard disk. With this newest Everio, JVC combines these benefits with 3-CCD/5-megapixel performance." http://www.jvc.com/press/index.jsp?item=453&pageID=1 [b]

But there are several camcorders I would buy before I would get the JVC GZ-MC500


New upcoming flash card camcorders are gonna support the capacity of 4GB or more.
I casually look at upcoming technology and features however to me there is a large difference between what exists now that I can buy now and what is coming in the future.


I think the 2GB limit is caused by FAT16 file system. If the camcorder supports FAT32, it can support the capacity higher than 2GB. However the file size is still limited to 4GB. That's why HDD camcorder creates the new MPEG2 files once the recording file size reaches 4GB.Allthough I have not researched it, I suspect there are some technical hurdles such as the speed of memory cards, rewriting internal firmware and getting it into production, the efficiency of FAT16 and FAT32, why not NTFS, cluster size may be a problem and compatability with existing computers (card readers), and probably a lot of others issues I have not thought of.


But the price of many HDD camcorders are lower than of flash card camcorder.
The price of camcorders are dirt cheap. My Canon A-1 Hi8 camera cost $1600 in 1991. When you consider inflation that would be about $2200 today. Technology has gotten better and cheaper. I don't remember what was available back then; but there were no $300 camcorders.


Please kindly suggest if I should add or rewrite any point to be precise and less confusing. Thanks again :)

You did a pretty good job. However, I have found that people have different expectations, different experience levels and different budgets.

If I were to get a MPEG recording camcorder right now I would spending a lot of time just encoding it to DV AVI because of the type of editing I do, so the issue of transferring tapes is not a time issue for me, I don't watch the transfer, I go do something else. I don't even wait to transfer stills from the four 1 GB SD cards I have, I can always find something to do. My large edited files normally get encoded while I am asleep or going to be doing something else.

I see too many people trying to figure out how to "edit" and "combine" their DVD's and how they have lost or can not view their DVD video.

There are many posts where people have dragged an old camcorder out of the closet or who have only shot 1 or 2 hours of video in several years.

Then there are many who decide they want to make a documentary but only have a $200 to $300 budget and have no basic photography skills.

I am not criticizing these people, everyone has to start somewhere but being old it appears to me that younger generations are expecting too much to quickly. I hate to use the term "instant gratification" but it appears to be a reality.

That's why your Pro's and Con's list may be misleading, but you tried and you did a good job!


Rich

You are correct. Although JVC calls it a hard drive in some of their literature:

But there are several camcorders I would buy before I would get the JVC GZ-MC500

I had compared JVC GZ-MC500 with Panasonic SDR-S100 before I decided to choose Panasonic with many reasons including design, price cut, MPEG2 engine eventhough GZ-MC500 outperforms SDR-S100 in low light situation (bigger CCD size). Btw, JVC bundle 4GB MicroDrive with GZ-MC500. MicroDrive is a mini hard drive that can fit in a CF type II card. CF type I is a solid-state card. However, GZ-MC500 can accept CF type I/II and SD card. So video recording is possible with both CF and SD (hi-speed card only). It also can record video on 8GB CF (or more when available).

You did a pretty good job. However, I have found that people have different expectations, different experience levels and different budgets.

Thank you for your compliment. That's the reason I've compiled the comparison. I didn't intend to persuade anyone to switch from the camcorder type they love. Just to let the newcomers quickly learn what type of camcorder should meet their basic requirements.

I remember, years ago, I brought parents of a friend to buy firewire card and taught them how to capture from MiniDV tape, how to run AVIsynth and how to use TMPGenc encode into MPEG1 to be ready for VCD output. (DVD writer was still very expensive and hard to find that days) They asked me if there was any easy way. "Is there anything that can record and play on DVD player right away ?"

So when DVD camcorders was being introduced to the market, I did guess it should become very popular.