Hey Scott, there was another thread on here asking about video editing being better on Mac or PC. Being a current Mac user with some experience you might be able to provide some insight for the poster. Being a multi platform user I can testify the Mac OS is better in general, but I am new to video editing and couldn't verify one way or the other on that specific issue. Here is the link if you are interested in posting.

http://www.camcorderinfo.com/bbs/t111168.html

Thanks to everyone who put their input in. I also came to the conclusion that there is no perfect model out there. I am limited on what I want to spend and at the moment it is more important for me to have a camera to record moments that will be lost in just a couple of months with my kids at the stages they are at right now. I took everything i read here and other research i did on consumer reports and just talking to people about what they have found most important. I went ahead and purchased the optura 30. I haven't received it yet, but will be doing extensive trying it out in the first week to make sure it doesn't need to go back. I just felt for a bottom line under $500 this camera seemed to give me alot. It's only downfall being the low light. I do plan on testing that extensively when i get it. Like i said i won't be doing a ton of low light videoing, but I do want to make sure it works in those conditions if that arises. I will definitely let all of you in the same boat as me know what I think. The reason i decided against the 120 was the stabilization. I figure that is something that would effect every day videoing and i won't be using a tripod for most of the use. The sonys have some negatives also and so that is kind of how i came to my decision. Like i said i will let you know how it works. I also figured if i had to it was still cheaper to buy the 30 and add an extra light if i needed to. Have any of you added an extra light to the accessory shoe and had it work good? THanks again,
L

I use a Canon ZR right now, and I'm in the market for something that does better in low light. Please understand, low light does not mean in a dark cave. Low light means indoors without sunlight (like at night or in the day where there aren't windows) with a few 60 watt lights. This is a pretty standard setup in most people's homes. People read in this light, eat in this light, play in this light. My ZR cannot record decent video in this light. It's very grainy and washed out.

Now, the Optura is a higher end Canon model. But in my tests it could only handle this kind of lighting if it did some slowing of the shutter speed, resulting in choppy video. It has an automatic setting that slows the shutter less than the ZR, so it's not as bad as the ZR, but it's still not good.

I've added a light to my ZR, and it helps for close ups. But it's also hard on people's eyes close up. You could set up shop lights like some people do, and bounce them off the walls or put a diffuser in front (something non-flammable please). But if you're going to this effort, you probably can also go to the effort of setting up a tripod, so the GS120 stabilization wouldn't be an issue.

Also, in terms of the GS120 stabilization issue, for most indoor taping of family you're probably not going to be zooming much if at all. In fact, you might be wanting even wider an angle on these cams. So, the stabilization won't be an issue, as it's only a problem when zooming.

Now, the Optura is a good cam. And in sunlight, the Canon cams are really great. Much better IMO than the comparable Sonys. So with an added light or maybe some manual tweaks and some stronger lightbulbs in the house, it might suit you just fine. I keep my ZR on 1/60 shutter speed, which doesn't affect motion really and helps with less grain. I also manually white balance which helps some too. The Optura's auto setting (don't remember what it's called -- Auto A or something? Or is that the JVCs?) may keep motion good enough (slower, but not as slow as the usual low light modes on these cams).

I use my gs120 like crazy and found the image stabilization to be more then adequate. There are many techniques one can use to assure good video quality without using a tripod. However, I do suggest using a tripod anytime you can with any kind of camcorder. First, always use two hands to hold the camera, and you can use your chest to rest your elbows against. Second, try not to use the zoom feature so much, if you want a closer image, get closer to the subject. I teach black and white photography at the college level and the largest problem I see with novice photographers are they never get close enough to the subject. I would imagine this is a similar problem in videography. Of course, sometimes you can't always get extremely close because of the subject matter you are shooting, i.e. nature shots. Just a few suggestions for anyone listening.

ok, i am getting nervous now that i made the wrong decision on the optura 30. I will get it monday and i will try it out very quickly in all these low light areas. I did not realize that low light meant inside rooms with light also. I really just got overwhelmed with too much information. I will let you know how it looks on monday. I guess if it isn't good i will be sending it back and going back to the drawing board with the sony 40 or panasonic 120.
Thanks,L

Don't let yourself get too worried about what you've been reading here. I don't know what kind of background you have, but three things to consider:

1) The Canon 30 aperture goes down to a f-stop of 1.8, meaning it can go wider than all but a few digital still cameras, which means that it is "fast", and can operate at a higher shutter speed for given light levels than many lenses, meaning it can take action shots at reasonably low light. Furthermore, it is not like the Canon ZR series, because in addition to a better color filter, it uses 1.2 megapixels for video, which it then downsamples to 375K when saved to tape to meet current video standards. That means that you have about 4 pixels being sampled, for each one being written to the mini-DV. I don't know about the aperture on the ZR, but the Optura technology is fundamentally more advanced than the ZRs. The Optura 30 is EVERY bit as advanced as the GS120, it is just has a different orientation -- the 30 uses approximately 4 pixels to capture detail AND color for every pixel saved,and gets a higher level of detail because of it. The 120 uses 3 pixels to capture color exclusively for every pixel saved, with a one pixel captured for one pixel saved on resolution, it is a detail versus color TRADEOFF. (Each one ends up with the same number of pixels, and one color per pixel, the difference being how they get there.) The GS120 will likely get richer colors in marginal lighting conditions, the 30 should get better resolution. Some review sites like one technology choice and some the other, so choose your poison, bad light is bad light regardless.

2) The Optura 30 has multiple modes and manual settings that can be used to improve performance across a wide variety of lighting conditions.

3) My personal experience so far, for what it is worth, with my Optura 30, is that it performs just fine under "normal" indoors lighting conditions at night, and absolutely EXCELS when the light is what is desirable for photography.

So don't assume problems, if you do, you will find them, and may end making a less than optimal decision.

Thank you for making me feel better about the 30. We will know soon enough. I should receive it on Monday. I am excited to get my hands on it and try it out. When you say that your 30 works good in typical lighting inside at night do you mean with a lot of wattage lights or just about 75 or 100? Does the quality change alot when you download onto the apple and then onto a dvd? I guess when i try things out on monday i want to try everything.
Thanks again,
L

Hi L, this is my personal experience with the Canon Optura 30 so far. Leaving aside manual shutter speeds and so forth, you have four basic modes for working with light levels: 1) Easy recording (total automatic) 2) Programmed Automatic (lets you play with manual but you don't have to) 3) Low Light mode and 4) Night Mode. These are my comments:

1) Easy Recording. Never used it.
2) Programmed automatic. In combination with manually setting white balance, this one works well within ten feet of a single 23 watt CFL, which is about equivalent to a 90 to 100 watt incadescent. This also works well with several shaded 60-75 watts scattered around you. Nice rich colors, crisp detail, handles movement well. With a couple of nearby 23 watt CFLs it can handle a fast moving labrador retriever tail and bouncing tennis ball without a problem. We have a number of very nice scenes under these kind of conditions already, including some real family treasures.
3) Low light mode. Getting a little grainy, still good color albeit with some saturation loss, some blurring with rapid movement, but does work... respectably ... within ten feet of a single 13 watt CFL (60 equivalent). However, 20 feet away from a single 60 watter, it is simultaneously losing color saturation and the ability to deal with movement, the jerkiness becomes major. The bigger the room the faster the problem with one light, as there is less powerful reflected light to help you.
4) Night mode. Fun toy. Can pop out some detail and colors in a dark corner 20 feet away from a single candle. Of course, it can't handle movement whatsoever, which is a bit of a problem with a video camera.

That's a long way of saying turn on a few normal lights, and you should be just fine. Good luck and enjoy your new camcorder!

Dan

Outstanding pair of posts, Dan. Very clear, very specific and hits a top concern shared by everyone who visits this site. Too bad it's buried in a thread that itself will get fewer views with time. Please consider starting a new thread. The Moderator might make it a sticky, and others may follow your example with their experience with their own makes and models.

For instance, I have a GL2 and a Pany GS200 that I use mainly in an auditorium setting. While I've tried to write some posts on various subjects that would help people, for some reason I've never gotten off my arse and shot some footage around the house under specific lighting conditions and simply reported what I got. I think that people are dying to hear that. Go ahead, shame us into it. That would be a huge service.

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Fred

DDigital video (DV) that is used on miniDV cams needs 25 Mbps bandwidth. Firewire (standard, not the new 800 version) is more than enough.

Another reason USB is not used for video is that most NLEs will not see a cam on the USB port. They are designed to use Firewire since it is the preferred method for capturing video. Those few that do require USB 2 on both the cam and the computer. And very few cams have USB 2 so we're back to Firewire as the way to go.
[/QUOTE]The second part of the equation is that USB "bursts" during transmissions which can cause a loss of frame rates. Firewire is constant so you greatly reduce your chances of frame loss.[/QUOTE]Yes, Firewire is an isochronous protocol that works better with time sensitive data such as streaming real time video. For more tech info on Firewire see these sites:

http://www.1394ta.org/Technology/
http://firewire.adaptec.com/1394_summary.html
http://www.reed-electronics.com/tmw...e/CA214129.html

Good luck.

Dennis

I am anxiously waiting for my camera to arrive tomorrow. I am definitely going to play around with it alot next week to fully decide if i like it or want to try something else. I thought about going to a local store and trying out a couple other cameras also so i know how to compare to the others. I am thinking the panasonic 120 and the SOny 40. I have heard some coments on the 120, but not a lot on the 40. What do you think? Is that a good idea and good ones to compare? and will the quality change once it is downloaded on the mac and onto dvd? Is that something to test and compare also?

Thanks, L

The quaility doesn't degrade at all when you download from the camera to the computer in DV format ( .avi file ) via firewire. No you don't have to campare cameras in this regard because it's true of all of them.

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Fred

As fretread says the quality won't change when you capture what is on the tape in a given cam. However, the quality may differ from cam to cam.

Some cams have a sharper picture because of the lens system they use and how they process and compress the image into DV on tape (yes, cams compress video about 5:1 to get the image we know as uncompressed AVI). Some will have better color because of the number of CCDs and the way the color is processed (some cams are warmer than others, for example). Some will be better in low light because of lots of factors.

A good way to test this and see if you like the image is to take a tape to the store and shoot some footage. Take it home and capture to your computer and look it over.

Good luck.

Dennis

Hello Fred,

Thank you for the very kind comments a few posts up! I did do some work in getting the second post together (as much for my own benefit as anyone), and am glad that someone noticed. As I learn more, I find that there are a whole series of things that I have learned about the Optura 30, particularly with regard to the still camera functions -- that in some ways far exceed what I was led to believe the reviews. Which is understandable, there are so many ways these fine tools can be used. Anyway, if I can find the time some day, I would like to pull together a comprehensive review of my own regarding both pros and cons, and post it here and/or the Canon group (if double posting is allowed?).

Thanks again!

Dan

ok I got my optura 30. I have to say that I haven't taken alot of footage, but the footage i have taken i am not impressed. My biggest complaint is that the motor tape noise was picked up on the recording quite loud. I was recording my child doing and speaking something cute and wanted to catch it on video. I will be using the camera in loud places, but it is very important for me to use the camera in this kind of quiet environment with my kids and want to be able to hear them without a loud buzz. I went to wolf camera and the guy there had his powerbook there. we put a tape in the canon elura 60, sony 40 and pana. 120. and taped a small amount. The elura was worser than the 30. The sony 40 picture was much betteder than the canon's, but the motor noise was even louder. Quite loud actually. The panasonic 120 was the quietest as far as motor noise. I just feel like I need to give the optura 30 a little more of a chance, but if it continues to have this motor noise I might have to return it and purchase the panasonic 120. I know alot of you told me to go with that one to begin with. Just too many details and i am totally confused and concerned at this point. What do you guys think?
thanks, L