hi,
I am in the market for a new minidv camcorder and am very confused. Everyone i ask gives me a different opinion. Ok, i want a camcorder to video my kids video and sound are both important. Consumer reports says that the elura 60 has poor sound quality. Have you experienced this with the 60 or the 65 0r 70? I also just got a ibook mac and want to have the ease of downloading video onto the computer so that i may burn dvd's. A retailer told me that sony has incompatibility issues with mac. Apple seems to say this isn't true, but i dont know again. The cameras that i seem to keep hearing about are the sony dcr-hc40, the canon elura series either 65 or 75 if they are better than 60 with sound and the optura series. We really don't want to spend what the optura is if we don't have to. What are your opinions on what is the best camera for videoing home videos of family and kids where sound and video quality are very important!!! and ease of downloading and compatibility with mac. I am open to other models also these are just the ones that i have seen. I really want to spend something in the 500 range if possible.
thanks, L

Look at the Panasonic PV-GS120 before you decide on anything else. Read the review on this site. It's a great consumer camcorder. You'll probably have to spend a little more than $500, but not much more if you buy from a reputable online dealer.

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Fred

thanks,
I have read a little about that panasonic also, but have heard mixed things about panasonic in general. how does the panasonic communicate with a mac?
thanks,L

The 1394 digital link standard was conceived in 1986 by technologists at Apple Computer, who chose the trademark 'FireWire'. It was adopted in 1995 as the IEEE 1394 standard at about the same time that Sony introduced its trademarked i.Link.

An unknown number of people have problems with Firewire transfers and others have no problems. I am in the latter case with two Sony's (HC40 and TRV460) tested on at least six computers (all PC's, none Mac). Apple has a "compatability list" which did not seem current/updated the last time I saw it. I'm not sure where the current list is maintained. I do not own a Mac.


Rich

Your salesman was full of crap, and was probably trying to upsell you on a different product. This is typical and in general any advice they give you should be taken with a huge grain of salt. See the Apple website for a list of compatible camcorders:

http://www.apple.com/macosx/upgrade/camcorders.html

While I am a Mac enthusiast I currently do not own one. I hope to change that with the next tax return, and I will add either an iBook or PowerBook to the computer collection. The point I am trying to make is that I am rusty and out of date with current Mac technology, but in general PC's use a program to "capture" the video from the camera. With Macs I think you can do this with iMovie and/or iDVD. I think those "approved" camcorders are those that work with those programs. Possibly using a 3rd party program would increase the number of compatible camcorders. That is just my assumption, but it might be worth checking out. Either way, the Apple site very clearly indicates the HCR-40 is indeed supported.

Also I might note that alot of these threads you see about not being able to capture video relates largely to user error. Some people don't realize their cameras have a Firewire port and that is what they need to use. Some don't have cards. Some don't know to use a capture program. The list goes on and on. I do believe that some genuine problems exist, but I strongly believe the larger portion is more related to the general lack of knowledge of the consumer. Of course, that is okay, we are all here to learn something. Just be careful how you evaluate all those posts.

In closing, have you checked out the "best camcorder review" section on this forum? It lists the top camera in several different price ranges. As previously mentioned the Panasonic GS120 seems to be a really good pick for value and features. It might be a little higher than your price range, but it might be the best extra $50 or $100 you spend on such an investment. Remember, you will probably have this camera for awhile and you don't want to regret the decision you made. Simply not going out a weekend or two would save the extra money needed to buy the camera of a better caliber.

http://www.camcorderinfo.com/conten...-Camcorders.htm

The idea of a computer with an IEEE 1394 port not working with a device like a camcorder that uses the IEEE 1394 standard is foreign to me. I've never owned a MAC, and they may posess virtues I've never experienced, but video capture may be an area in which the open architecture of the PC has resulted in more universal compatibility.

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Fred

A couple of you have noted that i should check out the panasonic 120. Also it was said to check the apple site to see which ones are compatible. The sonyhc40, the optura 30 are both on that list, however the panasonic 120 is not. That said which out of those 3 would you buy for great video and sound quality videos of family inside and out??
Thanks,
L

From the Apple compatability list:"Panasonic All Panasonic DV camcorders with FireWire (IEEE 1394) output are Mac-compatible."

That would include the Panasonic GS120.




Rich

Yes, in general Firewire (IEEE 1394) is a universal standard that can be used equally on either the PC or Mac platform. I believe it was Apple that introduced the standard and labeled it "Firewire".

The reason you want to use Firewire over USB is simple. First off, unless you are using USB 2.0 then the speeds are dramatically slower. USB 1.1 is only rated at 12mb vs. USB 2.0 which is rated at 480mb. That is a huge difference. Firewire is only at 400mb unless you get the new stuff Apple introduced called Firewire800. As you may have guessed by the name it transmits at 800mb. But speeds are deceiving as those are listed maximums. I believe the video actually transfers around the 40-50mb range.

The second part of the equation is that USB "bursts" during transmissions which can cause a loss of frame rates. Firewire is constant so you greatly reduce your chances of frame loss.

Haha, you beat me to the draw. I was answering the other question first. But yes, even the Apple website says all Panasonic equipment with Firewire is compatible. If you like the GS120 and can up your budget, I'd go for it w/o hesitation.

I second on Panasonic GS120

Thanks guys,
I guess i will go look at the 120 today. That is one that i hadn't really looked at here. I was staying away originally because it was panasonic and everyone had told me to go canon or sony. If the panasonic is the best one to go with and i can find it for an ok price then i will try that one. I just am scared to buy it online to try it out. If i don't like it it will be hard to return. How is Band H with returns.. They have it for $589.00. Which is still $100 more than the optura 30 since it has a $100 rebate. Can I ask you guys what makes the 120 that much better than the optura 30? I promise i will make a decision today and stop asking so many questions. I just don't want to buy another one of these for a very long time.
Thanks, L

ok, i am back. I have been reading the reviews on the 120 and a couple of things make me nervous. First the image stabilization. I will not be using a tripod most of the time since i will be picking it up to catch cute kid things or kids performances. THe other was the fact that someone said that the optura and sony had better color and video. This brings me back to look at the sony 40 which i earlier deleted and still the optura 30. is the other sony hc85 i think worth upping my price. from what i have read no need to up price to the optura 40 low light is still an issue. What about the elura models? Again the things that are most important to me are VIDEO AND SOUND QUALITY OF MOSTLY INDOOR TAKES ON THE KIDS, PERFORMANCES AND SOMME OUTSIDE SPORTS THINGS. I AM SURE THERE WILL BE DARK NIGHT SOMETHING ONCE IN A WHILE, BUT NOT MY MAIN USE FOR IT. Thanks everyone. I just keep getting more and more confused.
thanks, L

I have a gs 120 and I use it with my g4 ibook. The 120 works great with my mac, although my suggestion would be to get as much ram added to your ibook as possible(1280 is the max). I run 784 mg ram and use Final cut Express and it runs pretty good and FCE is much more intense than imovie. In terms of the image stablization, I find the gs120 to be pretty good in outdoors. Inside is kind of a different story, so I would use a tripod, and in your price range nothing is going to have outstanding image stablization inside. I know you may not want to use a tripod, but if you want good video I would suggest it. Also, I got my gs 120 off of electricsam.com. I got it for just over 500 dollars and they had shipped and in my hands the very next day (I don't know how they did it.) -scott

From what I have read, it appears Panasonic and Sony are the leaders in the camcorder world. I see Canon as a close 3rd. I have yet to hold any of these cams in my hand, but from reading reviews I too really liked the Canon Optura. Their downfall is they are struggling to produce a camera with the low light capabilities as the Panny and Sony models.

Everything I read seems to point back to low light performance, and I consider it to be critical to a good decision. Although I don't completely understand lux values, I realize the camera sees rooms differently than we do. What seems bright to us may not be sufficiently bright to the camera to produce a video with the vibrant colors we expected. I pulled reviews on the GS120, HC85, HC40 and Optura 30. The GS120 & HC85 did equally well in low light situations. The HC40 was in the middle, and the Optura 30 brought up the rear. I like the GS120 and HC85 for this reason.

You also noted video quality. In general, you want a camera with the largest size of CCD, and preferably one with 3 CCD's. In the consumer market your choices are limited. Panny's offer 3 CCD's but they are smaller than some of the 1 CCD offerings found in Sony and others. My readings indicate that generally you get a sharper image with the larger CCD, whereas you get better color saturation and little less sharpness with 3 CCD's. Which is better? I think it depends on who is looking at the video. There was a thread recently where Don and another forum member went back and forth explaining why one was better than the other. Again, I'd buy the one that looked best to me and came with the camera that offered other features I valued such as better low light performance.

The image stabilization is a downfall on the GS120. I have read stuff where the users say it is horrible, and others say it isn't bad. I'm not sure what to believe, other than I know it will get worse with the more zoom you apply. This would be the nice part about buying where you could easily return/exchange. Also, there is an issue with the LCD screen solarizing, which basically means at the right angle and light you can't see the LCD. This is easily fixed by moving the LCD or adjusting your viewing angle. While annoying, it is an easy fix and not something that would break the deal if the camera offered everything else I wanted.

I agree that the HC85 is a good competitor to the GS120. I don't like it for 2 main reasons. First, I am not a Sony enthusiast and feel that many times you pay more simply for their name. Secondly, there have been some defective issues noted with the HC85. Check the Sony forum as their is a thread pinned at the top. Even the review notes something about it. I don't know if the issue has been resolved, but it's worth checking out.

In the end I am left with the feeling that no camcorder will meet 100% of my expectations, at least one that I can afford. We sacrifice quality for money or sometimes vice versa. I still need to thoroughly review the JVC line and perhaps my faith will be restored. Either way, there is no need to feel rushed into a decision here. Take your time and do your research upfront. As you noted, this is a long term decision and you want to be satisfied for years to come.