Hi,

Looking to buy my first camcorder and I've just become perplexed by all the different options available.

In terms of usage, it's going to mainly get used for dull old family/holiday shots for burning onto DVD. However on rare (and I stress rare) occasions I might want to use it for semi-professional multimedia projects as I do some freelance work in that area.

I started out thinking that I'd restrict myself to HDD cams for the simple reason that it seems obvious to me that that's the way the whole market is heading and that in a few years time miniDV and other formats will be effectively obsolete and it seemed crazy to be buying into a technology in it's death throes. So imagine my surprise when I discovered how few HDD cameras there were on the market!

So now I don't know which way to go. The HDD cam I had my eye on was the JVC MG-70, but I can get a panasonic miniDV GS400 for a similar price, and most reviewers seem to be raving about how good the GS400 is, while being very cool on the MG-70. I've also looked at the JVC MC-500 but that's more expensive, and more expensive still when I'd need to buy another microdrive.

So my questions are:
1) Is miniDV likely to be around as the leading format for a good many years yet?
2) Given my requirements - MG-70, GS-400, MC-500 or something else?

Cheers,
Matt

No one knows for sure. But I am betting on it. I will use MiniDV for at least five years. I've been exposed with the new formats since the late 60's. But that is just my opinion.

Rich

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I think that non-tape media are surely better than tape media (so that "digital tape" sometimes it seems to me like a sort of contradiction), but...
Digital video was born on DV and miniDV tapes, frail and already obsolete media, but it was finally digital.
At least, some new media appeared (DVD-R, solid-state RAMs, micro drives & HDDs) but these are new technologies, not always the best.
One more time, too, HD was born on (H)DV tapes, no matter for MPEG2 artifacts, it's so exciting!
HD needs new TV screen, new PC and new disc burner. More, are we sure that it will be the final HD standard?
Are we living in the future? Is our mind always there?
At the present, and this is the only time I'm really living, I still prefer a mature technology that works than a new performing promise.
MiniDV will not be forever, and soon it'll be no more "the leading format for a good many years yet", but cheap tapes will be still available for years (thanks to HDV,too).
Yes, HD solid state RAM camcorder (at least 20GB, of course, for 1 hour of HD MPEG2), maybe will be soon a big temptation. I'll like an HDD cam, too, but I prefer to find a removable HDD inside.
Tomorrow never knows, like an old song said...
Good luck with your troubles
olonoise

I disagree that miniDV tape is a) already obsolete or b) soon to be obsolete. It will be when disk-based camcorders can use removable drives that are as small as miniDV tapes and priced accordingly.

One thing many people seem to overlook is that hobbyists want, no, need to archive the footage they shoot. With a miniDV tape it is the archive. Once the video has been captured on a computer the tape is stored and never needs to be touched again barring a loss of the captured video. And it's small and easy to carry and store and extremely cost effective (a miniDV tape holds the equivalent of 13 GB of data).

With disk-based camcorders it is easy to copy the video files to a computer. But then the files are usually deleted from the drive to make way for more recording. Now there's only one copy. Unless you like to live dangerously, you'd be wise to immediately make a backup of your video. Choices are another disk drive, optical media such as DVDs, or, gasp! tape.

Plus you have to plan for a hard drive getting filled up while shooting in the field. You either need to carry a laptop to offload some video, which takes some time and occupies the camcorder while doing so, or you need to delete some files. Presumably you'd need to preview some of the files to determine which to delete or just take a chance. None of these options appeal to me compared to the ease with which a miniDV tape can be popped out and slipped into your pocket.

Sure, hard drive based camcorders are the future. As soon as they can record in DV format (and later HDV) and become cost effective, they take off. But I'm with Rich on this one. It'll be 5 years (at least) before anyone pronounced miniDV tape dead.

Just my 2 cents worth. As always, YMMV.

Good luck.

Dennis

I think MiniDV is a format that can be around for a long time. Heck, I still see VHS tapes for sale in stores. My guess is MiniDV will keep on going for some time. The good thing about MiniDV is the fact that the format is digital. This is good because picture quality doesn't deteriorate based on the medium. It's 0's and 1's. It's quality is just as good as anything written to hard disk or other medium. The only thing holding it back in my mind is the minimum size required for the tape transport and the fragile nature of the transport itself. Tendancies of eating tapes ect...

This has been the one big letdown with regard to the format, durability of the MiniDV camcorders themselves. I've had two so far. A Canon Optura Pi and Jvc DVM76. The DVM76 is still going fine, haven't used it too much, but the Optura became a tape eater. If you read enough of the forums you'll find that MiniDV cam breakdown is not an uncommon problem. A friend of mine that was an early adopter of MiniDV, had the original JVC matchbox camcorder has gone through 3 in a period of about 8 years. His current camcorder is a JVC HDD based one. He was sold on the fact that it would be more reliable. I'll be interested in seeing how he feels about the camcorder after a year or so of use.

From a review I've heard hard disks haven't been a very reliable medium for video or photos. One reviewer noted that IBM microdrives had a tendancy of failing after about a years worth of use. This is referenced from the DVSpot MC500 review. Also take a look at this interesting MicroDrive article. Considering that they aren't cheap, still 100's of dollars, I don't know that I would call that reliable. I was considering a JVC MC500 until I read that tidbit of information. The one good thing is that a drive can be replaced and the camcorder continue to work at a price lower than replacing a MiniDV transport. But what about the people who buy camcorders with unremoveable drives? Will manufacturers stick it to them with expensive replacement costs?

I think the jury will be out until we see how these new formats hold up under real world use. I'm waiting for a hard disk adapter type technology to come out in the future. My guess is someone will come up with a hard disk or solid state format drive that will be compatible with the MiniDV tape format. As drives become smaller and solid state memory become cheaper.

Mike

Adapter? FireStore "Direct To Edit Disk Recording"
http://www.focusinfo.com/products/f...e/firestore.htm



Rich

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I knew Firestore and others have solutions out today.
However, I was thinking of something more along the lines
of a drive that would fit in a MiniDV tape that could be
used to store video without any external unwieldly attachments.
Not to mention the firestore is a bit expensive and geared
for Pros.

I was also thinking maybe IPod would be capable of such a feat
somewhere down the road.

I've even seen some home brewed rig that use ultraportable
laptops.

Mike

Mike I seriously doubt any manufacturer would spend the money to develop a drive "that would fit in a MiniDV tape" shell. The device would still require power, it would still require data transfer cables and probably some electronic circuitry and that would probably end up being model specific. Looking inside the tape transfer mechanism is a bit scary, not much room. If an individual tackled that it would probably be easier to tear out the tape transport mechanism and video heads.
That is just my opinion. DV AVI (D25) does not have to be recorded on tape and it does not have to be recorded on MiniDV tape, Digital8 camcorders record the same video on different tapes.

I don't consider the Firestore to be an unwieldily attachment, I have actually seen one, a bit pricey for me and I wouldn't say it was exclusively geared for pro's. If you need that capability, ease of use and reliability then the price does not seem too high.

I have followed some of the "home brewed rigs", interesting. I use to be into building things but have changed...



Rich

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I was thinking of something along the lines of a cassette tape adapter that would make the adaption to the camcorder seamless. This means you would use it just like a regular tape, where all data is transfered via the existing video head, no need for extra wiring. As far as a power goes. That might be a problem. If the drive was solid state, lower power consumption, it might just require a build in lithium-ion battery. I think such as thing is doable, just don't know if the technology is cheap enough.

Yes, I know, not sure why you included this comment.

I can't say I've seen them in action, but it appears they would work best with a larger camcorder. I don't know how well balanced they would be with a small consumer camcorder.


Mike

Regarding the future of the MiniDV, I believe the format will become primarily a professional format with only high end 3ccd camcorders being manufactured. This happened to 3/4" tape and the full size SVHS equipment.

Kent McVety

I always wondered if it would be feasible to put a microdrive into a camcorder. They are the size of a Compact Flash (CF) card but twice as thick, the CF2 format.

I don't think the capacities are up to what they'd need to be to be a miniDV substitute, 13GB, but maybe in time. Then they could be used just like miniDV tapes. The cost would probably not be able to driven down to the cost of a tape and you'd still have the backup/archive problem if you had to reuse them due to the cost.

Oh well, it doesn't hurt to dream.

Good luck.

Dennis

The largest capacity Microdrive I can find is the Seagate ST1.2 Series ST68022CF which is 8 GB however the transfer speed is only about 9.7 MBps, not quite fast enough for DV AVI video which is a data rate of approximately 25 Mbps. They are in the $100 range right now. Your recording time would be about 36 minutes.

We might be able to use A-DATA TURBOSD150X2G SD Cards which are a bit faster at 15 MBps but only 2 GB which would limit your recording time to about 9 minutes. They are in the $150 range right now. There are some 4 GB SD cards coming out but don't know the transfer rate. Panasonic has some newer faster SD cards which claim "up to" 20 Mbps speeds but they are only 1 GB cards.

So you would have to wait until storage capacity gets up to about 30 GB and transfer speeds high enough for DV AVI and fits into a MiniDV cassette with enough space to hold the remainder of the circuits. Then all you would have to do is design some type of magnetic circuit can grab the data from two video heads spinning on a drum at 9000 rpm, battery design, power regulation design and overall interface design.

I think currently there are cheaper and easier solutions....



Rich

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Not that it really matters much, but isn't 9.7MBps (with a capital B) 9.7 megaBytes per second? If so, 9.7 * 8 = 77 megabits per second, so we can continue with the new microdrive design.

But we do need bigger capacity.

Forget the magnetic pickup deal. The device will be a tiny, thin little unit that screws onto the bottom of your camera using the tripod socket, and has a cable that plugs into the firewire port.

One of the best things about HDD recording is that it should essentially eliminate dropouts. Maybe I need a better camera, but I get at least one or two frames with dropouts (little blocks in the image) on just about every tape I record. (Sony HC85, with Sony "Premium" or something tapes. And yes, I've cleaned the heads. The dropouts are so infrequent that I suspect occasional flaws in the tape media..)

Oh, and connecting the HDD to the PC to upload the data rather than the old 1hr-video-equals-1hr-capture would be nice.

Tim L

I was incorrect! The drives appear fast enough. But 9.7 Megabits Per Second (MBps) is 1.21 Megabytes Per Second (Mbps) (unless I screwed up on my math again). There are 8 bits to a byte. Mbps megabits per second, MBps megabytes per second.

Yes.

My original point. Or just invest in a $3 MiniDV tape...

Rich

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No question. And about the time they'd perfect all of this everyone will have switched to HDV and the microdrive will be useless!Again, no question. I was just wishing out loud.

Good luck.

Dennis