I have close to one hundred 8mm and Hi8 tapes that I need to digitize. Everything will capture to lossless before archival, and I am simply focused on a playback device for this post. I have a Sony EV-S7000 playback deck that's proven to do a pretty good job on some of the older stuff. This is a top-tier 8mm playback deck from the 90s with a MSRP north of $2k back then. It's served me well for many years, and includes TBC, DNR, chroma enhancement and a variety of other stabilization features. I also have some external TBC/detailer/procamp devices.

I've been told that the better Digital8 devices can possibly produce better PQ out the s-video port than the EV-S7000 for my old 8mm/Hi8 stuff. Specifically, the years have been kind and the DNR and TBC on the typical TRV-480 has left mid-90s pro tech behind. I guess my questions are,

1. Is this true? Anyone have experience comparing a Digital8 camcorder to a top-notch 8mm editing deck from the old days?

2. If I want to experiment, which D8 should I look at? Budget is not a consideration, nor is recording capability. I'm looking at this simply in terms of playback quality, TBC, DNR and any other features that would improve playback. I probably would capture out the s-video port rather than draw data from firewire, I want to capture losslessly compressed video and do encoding on the PC where I have a lot more control. The TRV480 seems to be the most contemporary model, however I get the impression that the older upper-end models would serve me better, e.g. the 720 or 820? Any guidance would be appreciated!

Also, I'm not terribly concerned about durability or longevity, recording capability, etc. I really only want something with power, top quality playback and a s-video out. Everything else is optional... heck the LCD could be an etch-a-sketch and I'd still be cool with it. Also don't need 8/Hi8-to-DV capabilities either, I just want the 480i out of s-video.

The best quality for digitizing 8mm or Hi8 is not the S-Video. It is the firewire (also called IEEE 1394 or Sony i.Link). Any Digital 8 camcorder that can play back 8mm or Hi8 analog tapes, can convert them straight to Digital (format is DV-AVI, same as Mini-DV camcorder uses). The quality is very good as there is very little electronics to degrade the analog signal until it hit's the A to D converter. Once it's in digital, there is little to worry about. I capture the firewire digital output on my PC in 4.5 Gig size files, then burn them onto DVD+/-R discs. Each 4 Gigs hold about 20 minutes.

S-Video does not pass as much analog out as the digital conversion captures (IMHO).

But either way, any Digital 8 camcorder starting with the DCR-TRVx20's on up to the present that has the ability to play back analog tapes would be as good as it gets as long as it has the outputs you want. See the Excel spreadsheet on the sticky thread above to see which ones will do you. I would recommend the DCR-TRV120 for your purposes, but it could be any up to the latest DCR-TRV480.

Most of the digital 8 camcorders have a TBC and DNR for analog playback, and it is settable on and off, but may not be as good as an external one. On the other hand the direct tape to digital path is believed to be better for typical tapes than outputting analog, then converting it externally to digital.

Regards,

Ira

Ira,

Thank you for your quick and detailed response. I wasn't sure where to post (I frequent videohelp.com but haven't found many places that cover 8mm capture in detail, VH included) and I am glad I came here. People here seem very knowledgeable.

Interesting that DV capture would carry more information. Is this because the s-video output stage on these camcorders isn't very good? I've wanted to avoid DV in part because to avoid MPEG artifacting and in part to stay in 4:2:2 all the way through and capture in YUV2, which is where I do all my editing, regardless of source. Capturing DV would mean having to transcode that back to, say, huffyuv, and I've been loathe to do that. Is this completely standard DV that it would generate, e.g. MPEG2, 720x480 interlaced, 4:1:1, 29.97, etc.?

You've really piqued my interest, I guess I'll have to grab a model and try! I did look at the spreadsheet (in depth) but it didn't really narrow down the choices much. Is Digital8 like, say, SVHS, in the sense that the best units are several years behind us, and that PQ-focused types should err toward the older models?

The S-Video output is just fine, however, the maximum bandwidth of S-Video outout and cable limits you. If, on the other hand, you read from the video heads the analog video info, fed it to a A to D without much bandwidth loss (distance .5 inches) and assuming the A to D is of good quality, then it should be better than losing high frequency detail in the S-Video. I believe this will get you the best digital conversion of your analog 8 tapes, short of lab equipment. Of course, your mileage may vary.

I use DVD+R blanks to store the raw files (not MPEG2 encoded) as archival footage. I also change the DV-AVI timestamp to indicate the correct time before writing the raw files to the DVD+R's, as that info is not carried from the analog stream. I bring the raw files into a computer and edit them in a NLE (Vegas Video) and create standard DVD's when required.

Digital 8 produces an identical video stream as Mini-DV, just the storage medium is different. As far as I know, there is no Mpeg 1 or MPEG 2 compression in this format, more properly known as DV-AVI. It is 720x480 29.97 frame rate video. The exact details of it's compression escapes me for the moment, but it's very little, approximately 12 GBytes/hour versus 5 Gigabytes/hour for high res MPEG2 (Basically DVD format)

As for Digital 8, since it was an intrim format, Sony want's people to move to MiniDV or something else, so the newer models tend to have less input/output types, smaller CCD's (less sensitive to light), lower quality lenses. Sometimes they added a few bells and whistles, but not that useful. Any of the x20's are dynamite (and top loading which is useful for tripod work), anything earlier were 1st year prototypes with less features, anything later were dumbed down for cost or marketing reasons (at least on the video side - who cares about stills if it's not taking 3 megapixels +)

Pick one up on eBay for under $200 and you should be pleasantly surprised for a year 2000 camera. I use them in all kind of places I'd be afraid to take a high end (read that as $$$$) camcorder.

Regards,

Ira

sphinx99, there are a variety of opinions, you might read this thread: Hi8 Video Transfer

http://www.camcorderinfo.com/bbs/t110863.html



Rich

__________________
FireWire Survey

Be careful with buying a Digital 8 camcorder. Not all D8 models will digitize analog 8. The first generation D8 cams would all convert, but after that Sony kind of made two lines, the lower line would not digitize.

Currently, Sony only offers two D8 cams, the lower one not having the ability to digitize. That feature is reserved for the more expensive one.

Once again, thanks Ira.

Looks like a 720/820 model is my best choice. If I get one I will be happy to post how it compares (both s-video and DV) to a full-blown EV-S7000/external TBC/procamp/10-bit lossless YUV capture from s-video. I have a suspicion that the $200 camcorder over DV will produce a better capture than the $3k capture.

I never had a EV-S7000 but I do have several EV-S900's. I have found that any tape that I recorded on the S900 needs to be captured from the S900 because it has PCM stereo audio and only mono Hi-Fi audio. If I play these tapes in a D8 camcorder I lose the stereo audio.

So if your S7000 is the same way then deciding which way will produce a better picture is a moot point. I am willing to sacrifice a tiny amount of picture quality just to retain the stereo audio. I honestly don't think you will be able to see any difference in picture quality between the S7000 and a D8 camcorder.

Dave

Don't waste money on the 820 (basically a 720 with a printer). The only difference in the x20 line is the size/resolution of the LCD screen and a color versus b&w viewfinder and no memory stick for the 120. If conversion is all you need then the 120. 520 has B&w viewer (my preference).

But I'd be real interested in seeing your comparison of low end to high end. Only in the case where extreme TBC is required, will I suspect the S-Video path would be better.

One other thing. The Digital 8's do not play back and analog LP tapes (4hr+), only SP(2hr)

Regards,

Ira

There was talk about using the S-Video output on the Sony TRV480. It should be noted that the S-Video output was deleted on the 480. The previous 460 did have the S-Video.

Kent McVety

The biggest problem I've been having with these tapes are dropouts, shake, etc. due to age of the tapes. Many of them are far too unstable to be captured using some old Hi8 camera I bought for $10 just to see if the tapes were still good. The S7000's internal TBC however has addressed the majority (though not all) of the sync and other issues, and its DNR cleanup is pretty darn good, seemingly better than what I could do after-the-fact with avisynth/virtualdub. I've been able to fix the rest with an external TBC, however external units in my experience always tend to soften things up. I read some posts on usenet (scattered across the years) that suggested things are better with a Digital8's on-board stabilization which might render external TBC unnecessary.

Thanks again, now I'm off to find a TRV120/320.

I managed to snag a DCR-TRV820 at what I felt was a pretty good price. It is in excellent condition and even the printer works. It's also the single worst printer I've used in my life, but oh well

First impression: wow, this is an awesome portable playback device for 8mm tape formats. The 4" LCD is bright and colorful and a nice big size. Playback quality for Video8 and Hi8 is excellent, just excellent.

I promised I would compare this to a top-end deck. I will need a few more days to collect some more specific impressions, but I have some initial thoughts...

1. The EV-S7000 simply blows the TRV820 out of the water when it comes to speed and smoothness of the playback transport. I guess this should come as no surprise. As well built as the TRV820 appears to be, the prosumer editing deck simply outdoes it... smoother high-speed scans in both directions, far better stills and much more responsive.

2. On poor tapes with very poor tracking, the TRV820 seems to fare better than the EV-S7000. Both decks feature automatic tracking, although the EV-S7000 does have manual tracking adjust in slower (e.g. 1/2) playback modes. However the TRV820 not only seems to track better, it also maintains audio during bad portions better than the editing deck which likes to drop out audio early and often. This alone could be a winner for the D8 camcorder for me.

3. DNR - I like the EV-S7000 better. A lot better. It has two modes, "standard" and "max" DNR and both seem to remove more noise without touching any detail. When I turn on the TRV820's DNR, I see a decent amount of detail getting lost... it doesn't show up on the LCD screen but it does show up in the captures.

4. TBC - I couldn't see any evidence that either is better than the other. Both completely eliminate any capture problems. However, I noticed that the D8 camcorder somehow seems to lose a little richness of color (saturation?) when TBC is turned on. I need to do some more tests to verify this. I've never seen any such effect with the EV-S7000. So, again, I'm liking the editing deck.

5. Overall PQ - don't know yet. I think the EV-S7000 is producing richer and sharper video (when capturing to huffyuv via s-video) versus the DV-AVI out of the TRV820. I also like the DNR and TBC on the deck a little better. However the camcorder simply seems to be able to track to bad tapes better than the deck does. That may make it a winner by default.

6. Convenience - TRV820 wins by a looooooooooong shot here. It's portable, runs on batteries, and sends DV-AVI out through firewire. Not even close.

Right now I'm not sure where I lean... a $1,500 camcorder from 1999 or a $2,500 editing deck from 1993... what's the better Video8/Hi8 playback device for a capturing enthusiast? Time will tell!

Some grabs via virtualdub, no filters, on a sequence of fields with no motion. Default standard TBC and DNR for both capture devices. No detailers, procamps, external TBCs involved.

TRV820:


EV-S7000:

Thanks for the comparision!

The frame grabs do show a difference, the EV-S7000 image appears a littler sharper and the color range (dynamic range) appears a little bit better. The blacks seem blacker.

However, either one would be suitable for me.


Rich

__________________
FireWire Survey

I posted a little more depth with a lot of screenshots and a lot of TRV820 comparisons over on videohelp.com -

http://forum.videohelp.com/viewtopic.php?t=294775

Taking any suggestions on things to compare or try!

Of particular note, I'm not finding that the DNR on the TRV820 does a heck of a lot. If it's there, it's incredibly weak.