Can someone please tell me the difference between a Mini DVD camcorder and a MiniDV camcorder? I am looking for a small camcorder to videotape dog agility runs (the ones were the dog runs an obstacle course) so it needs to be small, simple to operate, have a decent zoom and be able to tape both indoors and outdoors (sunny or cloudy). In addition to being able to watch the playback immediately, I want to be able to plug the camera into either my TV or computer to watch later. Any suggestons? Looking at ads is only making things worse and most of the clerks at chain stores talk way too technical for me (in addition to being way too young to carry on a conversation with a little older customer).

What is your price range??
How much zoom do you need??
Dvd camcorders record on mini-dvds. They are small cams, easy to use. The higher end ones have very good picture quality and do well in low light. Once you are done filming, you can pop the dvd into your dvd player and watch. (Or you can hook it up to your tv directly.)
Mini-dv records on tapes. Most are small, easy to use. Most will do well in good light, some will do well in low light.
Once you are done filming, you can plug into your tv to watch. You can plug into computer with firewire and watch/edit on computer.
You can edit mini-dvd footage with computer, but there are not as many options.

I'd put it another way - Once you're done recording, you can plug into A/C power, perform a lengthy disk closure operation taking 10-15 minutes and then pop the mini-DVD into a player and watch.

Not only is the MiniDVD media limited to half the recording time of MiniDV (or less depending on the quality/bitrate selected), but the recordable media is more expensive and you may be in for some nasty compatibility surprises if you try to use re-writable media in an effort to save money. Things to consider.

ktnr2,
Good point, but it's probably still quicker than making a dvd from a mini-dv.
Plus, you could just plug either one into a tv to watch.

At 20 min to transfer 20min of miniDV (If you don't have any dropped frames), then 1-2 hours to encode to mpeg2, I'd say a lot quicker. Finalising a disc takes more like 5 mins in practice, and if your battery is not near flat you don't have to plug in AC. Media is, if anything, cheaper than miniDV tapes used once only. The only restriction is 20 min recording time at HQ. But then how often do you shoot clips of more than 20 min? Gets very boring if you do.

As Rich says, been debated many times before. Horses for courses and all that.

BTW most if not all manufacturers are cutting down on (consumer)miniDV ranges and expanding their DVD and HDD ranges. What do they know that we don't?

They know that there are a lot of people out there that want to make home movies, and make them quickly and easily.

...and that nine out of ten consumers don't edit their video anyway and buy cameras without much research based on price above any other factor (although perceived ease-of-use is probably a close second).

What MiniDVD models will allow you to finalize a disk without A/C power?

BTW; When did the original poster say that he wanted to be able to produce DVD's quickly?

He didn't, we've strayed from his question.
He said he wanted to play back immediately.
So, back to square one, either one can do that.

When I got my DVD cam, I spoke to two of my colleagues at work who had miniDV cams. One said he could never get his FireWire link to work and gave up, the other said he tried editing once or twice but because of the time involved he also couldn't be bothered.

I think editing and burning a DVD to give to family and friends adds a lot to the hobby of videography. With mpeg2 editing programs like Womble mpeg wizard the criticism that mpeg2 is difficult to edit falls away, and you can have a movie with titles, narration, music, transitions (all that most hobbyists want to do) burned to DVD within an hour or 2 of shooting it. This can only be beneficial to the hobby, and with the rise in popularity of mpeg2 recording formats the choice of editing software will also expand.

Just my £2 worth.

Mike

My Sony DVD203 can, for one.

Regardless of the pro/cons of DV Cams vs. DVD Cams, it's the media that is the downfall of DVD.

Electromagnetic tape storage has been around for decades and is widely considered the most stable medium for long term storage, especially when writing digital information onto the tape.

DVD's are a great medium for final playback of material since the discs are cheap and everyone in today's world has a DVD player. However, optical discs are NOT good for storage of important data. The plastic surface is very succeptible to scratching, warping, cracking, etc... Not too mention, there is a LOT of concern regarding the dye used in recordable CD's and DVD's. It is very possible that even if a person keeps their footage archived on mulitple DVD's, in a good environment, in a protective case, the dye will eventually fade or become opaque, rendering the disc unreadable. In the real world, the discs will be handled quite a bit and will become damaged.

Unless you are disciplined enough to create an "archive copy" of every disc recorded and re-burn the archive copies every 5 - 10 years, there is no way to feel safe that you will be able to view your precious DVD footage of "Christmas Morning 2006" in 2025.

For home movies, the SAFEST thing to do is record to miniDV tape, record only the good stuff onto DVD via computer or stand-alone DVD burner, store the DV tape in a fire safe, and watch the DVD's with your family and friends. Then, when the DVD becomes so scratched that it starts malfunctioning in your player, you will thank yourself a thousand times for having kept that $3 tape of raw footage.

My conclusion: Even if DVD camcorders seem more convenient, they are NOT a good idea. And even if you think your footage is not important enough to archive properly, you will have changed your mind years from now.

Popejohn,

What's you take on HDD camcorders?

Personally, although I too am a big fan of MiniDV as a recording medium, I can see where some people would prefer MiniDVD. For instance, there are many people with subpar computers of even no computer at all - that doesn't rule out MiniDV but it might make DVD's even more attractive. A the same time, I suspect that first-time camcorder buyers getting a MiniDVD camera are in for some surprises (including the one's you point out). It's a mixed bag - there are compromises and tradeoffs to almost every aspect of video, no?

Of course... there are always tradeoffs!

I have been involved with video since the early 90's and have therefore seen a LOT of shifts in video formats. I was around when VHS-C was preferred by many consumers since it was much more convenient to watch, compared to HI-8. I was actually ok with that decison, but the times have changed.

I would say that there are 3 things that people will consider when choosing a camcorder format: Physical size, recording quality, and playback convenience. Price is obviously the most immportant variable in consumer video, but is not necessarily tied to media format.


Physical size: miniDV and DVD cams are basically the same size, no real tradeoff there.

Recording quality: MiniDV recordings are, without argument, supierior to DVD recordings.

Playback convenience: This is the only area where DVD cams have an edge. Although future technologues WILL make transeferring miniDV footage to inexpensive DVD's much more convenient. Also, there are sometimes compatibility issues with DVD discs and players.

So far the tradeoff is increased playback convenience for decreased recodring quality. To this I would say: hooking up a camocorder to the TV to watch your miniDV tapes is not that difficult.

There is also a VERY important, fourth factor that consumers SHOULD but DO NOT consider when choosing a camcorder, and that is the dependability of the storage medium. Look at my last post for my view on that.

Whether he/she knows it or not, by choosing a DVD camcorder as the recording device, he/she is trading recording quality and dependability for playback convenience. So the question becomes: Is the ability to easily playback your footage in a DVD player WORTH THE RISK of not being able to watch the footage at all in 5 - 50 years. To me, taking that risk is unfathomable.

ktnr2,

Regarding your question about HDD camcorders....

"Hard Disk" and "Memory Card" camcorders are a VERY cool idea. In my everyday life and professional life, I use a WIDE variety of camcorders from the tiny HC90 to my pride and joy PD170, and everything in between. (No I have not made any move to high-def yet because it is still too soon)

I love the idea of the size possibilities when using internal memory instead of tapes or discs.

However, there is currently a massive trade-off right now in terms of recording quality. Low light capability, poor auto focus, etc... are still plaguing the early generations of memory based camcorders. Also, there is the issue of storage. If I were to use a memory camcorder, I would back up everything to a computer hard drive and I could burn DVD's for watching on TV. However, neither of the aforementioned methods are that reliable. Not too mention, editing MPEG footage is not that easy.

In the near future, I could see purchasing a memory based camcorder. Even though the recording quality and storage options are not great, the size advantage will allow me to record footage that would not be possible with a "full size" camcorder. In my opinion, memory camcorders will make great supplements to miniDV camcorders and I will include one in my arsenal for certain occasions.

I have not purchased a memory camcorder yet because they still need alot of imporvements. Also, I think it is very possible for future still cameras to record video footage that rivals memory camcorders. To me, it makes much more sense to have a really good Canon 5 megapixel still camera that CAN shoot decent video when I do not have a miniDV camcorder at my disposal.

If you are interested in capturing memories as frequently as possible, I would suggest the following:

A good miniDV camcorder that shoots adequate stills, and a good still camera that shoots adequate video. For me, this means carrying an HC90 and/or a Canon Powershot whenever possible.

Bottom line: There are not any memory based camcorders yet that meet my requirements and they will NEVER take the place of tape based camcorders. In fact, I cannot think of anything that will actually replace tape for video recording and storage.

Popejohn makes a lot of sense. We have had numerous discussions here about the pros and cons of the various storage media.

Just to amplify a point Popejohn made, one of the great advantages of miniDV tape is the, essentially, free archiving you get. Once you transfer your video to disk you store the tape as your permanent backup. With DVD and HDD media, you are faced with a problem as Popejohn mentions. Namely, you are using your original media as your working copy. You either have to dub off the DVDs or make a copy of your HDD video if you want a backup. Both of these are expensive and take additional time. Granted, capturing video from miniDV takes time but you have the archive copy when you are finished.

Just another tradeoff to consider when choosing the kind of media you want to record to.

Good luck.

Dennis