Forum,

I am writing to share additional information regarding the ongoing technical problems with my Canon DC10 camera, and the related difficulties in obtaining support through Canon USA.

The purpose of this posting is to inform potential Canon DC10 consumers of the debilitating problems with this camera by documenting factual information based on my own, now extensive, first-hand experiences with this product.

The information I would like to present here is in the form of a letter, written to Canon Factory Service, that is accompanying my DC10 on its journey to Jamesburg, NJ for warranty service. A copy of this letter is attached to this posting as a .pdf file.

Whatever the outcome, good or bad, I will share the results of my warranty service experience here. Despite their failings with respect to the DC10 product and their impotent telephone-based technical support service, I have been a loyal Canon customer and have had many years of good experiences with my EOS Rebel X 35mm camera. I will give Canon a fair shake if they resolve the outstanding issues with my DC10, but am compelled to share my experiences thus far as a caution to others in hopes of their avoiding the same late nights of teeth grinding frustration working with the DC10 camera, its software, and Canon technical support.

I strongly advise potential buyers of the Canon DC10 to research the satisfaction that current owners have had with this camera before entering into a potentially costly and frustrating purchasing decision. I hope you find value in this information.

Respectfully,

-Michael

Attached Files

20060519_canon_dc10_repair_REDACTED.pdf (52.5 KB, 633 views)

I wrote a letter very similar to this a few months ago. It was a very frustrating experience for me.

The customer service representative suggested that I return the camera for warranty service. I was aprehensive about doing this, and anticipated that they would analyze the unit and report that it was operating within manufacturer's specifications.

Instead of returning the unit for warranty evaluation, I requested that Canon refund my money. Unfortunately, I was informed that Canon's policy does not allow returns. I found the process quite frustrating.

I called Customer Support. They suggested that I read the manual, or speak with a technician who could advise me on the correct use of the camera. The reported that they would not issue a refund for the unit, and that it was the responsibility of the retailer for such actions.

More than 30 days had passed since I had purchased the unit. I was unable to return it to the retailer.

I wrote a letter to Canon describing my experience with the camera. It contained some detail such as the one you wrote regarding different failure modes resulting in lost data. I noted that I felt that it was unacceptable for a camcorder to exhibit this type of data corruption.

Canon responded by having a Customer Support representative contact me. Unfortunately, it was the same representative I had spoken to several weeks earlier via telephone. His answer was the same. Canon held the retailer responsible for all returns. He suggested that I speak with technical support or have the unit checked by warranty service.

I wrote several letters to Canon executives regarding my situation. I too had positive experiences with previous Canon products. But, I was very disappointed with the immaturity of the DC-10. One of the letters was sent to the President of Canon.

A customer service representative from the President's office contacted me. The answer was still the same...they would not be able to refund my purchase.

I was extremely disappointed by the entire thing. I will never buy another new Canon product until it has a proven track record. My observation is that Canon released a new technology that was not adequately tested. I suspect that there are many disappointed customers with the unit. My recommendation is to stay away from this series of products until adequate data is available to prove that it is reliable.

Regards,
MikeC

mikeC,

Your experiences with Canon customer service do not bode well for the remainder of my letter-writing odyssey that will certainly play out over the coming months. I am sorry to hear that Canon does, indeed, care as little about their products and their customers, in general, as their behavior with respect to my singular issue has thus far indicated.

I did receive my DC10 back from the Canon factory. In spite (emphasis on 'spite') of my repeated pleas for Canon to contact me with information about my camera once they had received and tested it, I received no such letters, phone calls, emails, etc. Instead, my camera was returned to me with a boilerplate form letter containing exactly one line of custom information:

"Service Details: rpl, main pcb assy, update firmware."

Perhaps I am simply not well-versed in the text message-style jargon of Canon service technicians, but (rhetorically) what the hell does that mean?

More importantly, was this repair action based on an actual diagnosis of symptoms exhibited by my camera, or the DC10 equivalent of a computer helpdesk telling me to reboot?

Furthermore, why must I send my camera to the Canon factory to update the firmware? (FYI, I specifically asked their telephone technical support representative if I could update the firmware using my home PC, and she said 'no'. I thought she was kidding.)

This experience, coupled with 12 hours of installing, upgrading, uninstalling, and reinstalling Canon software for my family's EOS 350D, EOS 20D, and PowerShot A75 cameras last week (try to get them all to work on one computer with the newest updates on the Canon web site - ha!) has led me to the following conclusion about Canon: Canon makes excellent hardware, and absolutely atrocious software. In this case, 'software' includes the DVD-writing software contained in the DC10.

Additionally, Canon, as a company, is entirely unequipped to provide even the most basic level of software technical support. Canon's DC10 technical support representative told me so, flat out, with respect to that product. Their support web site for their still cameras implies strongly the same for their PC 'utilities' for extracting, categorizing, printing, etc. images from those cameras.

I have resisted saying so in my posts until this point but, based on my experiences with Canon's software products - an integral part of digital video and still photography - and their veritable complete absence of technical support, I must state for the reader who is a would-be Canon camcorder owner:

Do not buy a Canon camcorder.

Even if their camcorder products manage to improve to the realm of 'average', Canon's support infrastructure and customer service is so deficient that the total cost of ownership (including the cost of lost sleep) is too high for anyone who values their time to afford.

I am going to resume using my newly-refurbished (?) DC10 and monitoring its progress over the coming weeks and months. If I conclude that it is either fixed or broken, I will updated this thread. It may, however, take some time for the original problems to appear or, in their stead, for me to be convinced that they will not re-surface.

Best of luck to those of you who have made the same mistake that I have in purchasing/receiving a Canon camcorder - and to those of you who are lucky enough to have an opportunity to choose another product in finding one that meets your needs.

Regretfully,

-Michael

As I write this I am doing may first extraction from a corrupt data disk using ISO Buster. Thank you for posting your solution to the corrupt disk. I didn't have many problems at first but after two months of use the camer is acting up. I've bumped the camera a bit while it was finalizing and wonder if that may not have caused at least some of my problems.

If the problems continue I'll have to replace the thing with a Sony, which was my first choice but the DC10 was on clearance for $429. That's only five dollars more than my last root canal cost.

Exactly what is the USB cable for? I can't get the drive to be consistently recognized by my PC. I thought that might be a way to extract these clips. It usually says 'unrecognized format'.

Thanks again for the ISO Buster tip, I'm sure I'll get something out of these disks.

Mark,

I am glad that you are finding IsoBuster useful, too.

Regarding your question about the USB cable, you should be able to read any finalized disc. For the small handful of non-corrupt discs that I've been able to shoot, my Windows XP PC recognizes them reliably when the DC10 is connected via the USB cable. I have never been able to read unfinalized VR discs, which I believe is the correct behavior. I can't remember how my PC behaves with respect to unfinalized VIDEO discs because I haven't shot one in a while.



As an updated on my earlier postings, after receiving my camera back from Canon Factory Service with the cryptic Service Details section, I received an invitation by email to participate in a customer satistfaction survey. Canon addressed me as "Our Valued Canon Customer" and opened their message with the following verbiage:

"Canon USA strives to maintain the highest standards of quality and service. It is our goal to meet and exceed your needs. In our ongoing effort to provide the best service possible, we would like to know how well we handled your recent repair at Canon’s Factory Service Center..."

I accepted Canon's invitation and completed the survey. At the end of the survey, I checked a box (for the third time) that indicated my problem was not resolved, and to have a Canon representative contact me. Unfortunately (for the third time), Canon has not been in contact; I submitted my survey almost two weeks ago.

The last page of the survey did, however, offer a 'special' customer service telephone number for those of us who had recently had factory service performed and who had completed the survey. Naturally, I called the nubmer to help understand what was wrong with my camera and what Canon actually did to it.

Unfortuantely, though not surprisingly, the gentleman on the phone was able to tell me absolutely nothing. He found my record in the computer, and was able to read the same Service Details text as was printed on my letter. He told me that "rpl" meant "replace". He was unable, however, to identify what the "main pcb assy" was. To his credit he tried for about 20 minutes to find out, putting me on hold and periodically coming back to reassure me that he was still working on it. In the end, he stated that none of the support staff in his office knew what a "main pcb assy" was, and that his was really more of a customer service center, not a technical support center.

IMHO, a telephone representative at the 'special' customer service number for users who recently had factory service should know - at very least - how to describe what service was performed at the factory. Canon's support services, again, prove to be a joke - though the joke is on me and I continue to not find it funny.

If anyone at Canon is out there - watching this thread, receiving my written letters, listening on the customer service phone lines, etc. - would you please acknowledge that I, and many others, have an ongoing problem and need your assistance? Your assertions that we are "valued" and that "Canon USA strives to maintain the highest standards of quality and service" is making you look ridiculous in light of your actions. Please, for the sake of your consumers and yourselves, do everyone the favor of acting instead of talking - for once.

-Michael

Main Printed Circuit Board Assembly.



Rich

__________________
FireWire Survey

Rich,

Mercy! Thank you for clarifying that for me. In retrospect, I should have been able to figure that out but, obviously, I didn't.

Hopefully, my old circuit board was actually broken, or the new one is somehow improved. It would appreciate some diagnostic information from Canon that suggests this component was actually at fault - and, in turn, that there was specific cause to suspect that replacing the circuit board would improve the camera's behavior. Instead, time will tell.

Thanks, again, for your reply.

-Michael

-Michael,

I was once an electronics technician, there are usually troubleshooting flow charts the technician follows, test points in the circuit, replace the part as indicated, test to see if that fixed it. When you consider the number of electronic circuits within an integrated circuit it sometimes amazes me some things work. Normal electronic failure typically happens within around 30 days of operation. I typically spend about two weeks testing a new computer (I have a chain of computers to maintain). I doubt Canon is going to really be able to provide you any meaningful diagnostic information, these miniature printed circuit boards are almost impossible, or at least not economical to repair or troubleshoot. I pretty much gave up repairing electronic equipment years ago.



Rich

__________________
FireWire Survey

Rich,

Understood.

I wasn't expecting Canon to tell me that tranistor number 28374 was broken and etch a new one on there or anything. I did, however, expect *some* feedback about the factory technician's experience with my camera. Were they able to reproduce the problem? Did the problem fit into a category on their flowchart? Or, is replacing the circuit board just the default fix when nothing else seems to work?

What I didn't want to happen is what initially happened with my pickup truck. I bought a first year Toyota Tundra back in 1999. Within 6 months, the truck was undrivable because the brakes shook so badly. Toyota replaced them with the same brakes. A year later, I ran into the same problem - naturally, because Toyota used the same faulty parts as the originals. Finally, after upgrading the whole braking system using 2003 model parts - with better vents, thicker rotors, etc. - I haven't had a single problem.

My point is: I don't want Canon replacing my circuit board with another circuit board that has the same problems. Not having received any communication from them, I am unclear as to whether my circuit board was actually broken, or if they have a hardware (or firmware) flaw somewhere in their DVD writing system that affects all DC10's when used under the same circumstances as mine.

The difference between my experience with Toyota and my experience with Canon is that I can recommend with confidence the Tundra as a great product, whereas I cannot say the same about the DC10. Both companies claim to have fixed the problem. With Toyota, I have a written factory technical service bulletin (TSB) describing the problem and the fix. With Canon, I have absolutely nothing. Maybe it's fixed; maybe it's not. Then again, I'm only the paying consumer...

-Michael

P.S. I am an Oracle / SQL Server database administrator, a former Solaris system administrator, and an electronics hobbiest. I fully appreciate the complexity of Canon's digital product and hardware/software troubleshooting process. If I sent my clients a bill and didn't tell them what I did to their server, however, they'd fire me - and rightfully so. I should have 'fired' Canon by refusing to buy their Digital Rebel XT after my problems with the DC10, but it's such an awesome still camera that I eventually caved in. So, what did Canon learn from my behavior? Nothing. They can continue to put out sub-standard camcorders with no adverse consequences. Shame on me. -M

The ISO Buster ran for a day and reported a number of bad sectors roughly equivilant to the national debt. Said the disk was useless - but as you said - I could play it in the camcorder. When I tried to import it with Roxio it would take for ever and finally time out if I put it in my DVD read only drive.

Some time ago I had trouble finalizing disks. It seemed that I could sometimes finalize disks, and other times not. Eventually after several times retrying at a later time it would. An email to the TS people got a reply back that said I should do two things. 1) make sure I'm using DVD-R not DVD+R. I had only used DVD-R. 2) make sure the camera was plugged into the AC. I then checked the manual and there it was. As I thought through what my best bet was I realized that my problems reading the camcorder drive might be related to the AC not being in, or some other variable that was escaping my attention. I was eventually able to read every disk I made from the shoot I had problems with.

I placed the camcorder, miniDVD installed with the drive door up on my desk. I reasoned this would give me the best read opportunity for the laser. Next I plugged in The AC, turned the DC10 to play, then connected the USB. I had tried this before with the camera mounted on a tripod. I don't remember if the AC was hooked up, but in any case it didn't work. I just got unrecognized format for the camcorder drive. I believe the increased 'evenness' of the position of the camcorder may be doing the trick. I don't know any other explaination for the sudden ability to read the disks in the camcorder. In the end it is good to have the footage.

I also think that because I didn't have the remote with me that day the camera probably got more vibration during the on and off of pushing the record button. If this is what caused my problem it is of course unacceptable, but someting I can live with as I shoot exclusively with the tripod and remote (when I have it)

I'll let you know how the next few shoots go, just thought I might be able to help you recover that one bad disk.

Hi,

we have a dc10 and experience some problems with it too.

The software wont install properly. Now I must say we use our pc for all sorts of stuff, so maybe some dll somewhere is causing problems. Maybe with a clean windows xp install these problems will go away. Manually installing works though. So I guess it is an installer problem.

The canon cd-r won't play back on our LG dvd player without hickup's or complete jump-outs. Our LG dvd-burner in the pc can play them though.

The canon dc10 seem to be unstable when recording in dvd-vr mode. On 2 incidents I lost one set of photo's because the picture map was suddenly gone and I could not import video from the camera as the software was unable to "see" the recorderded part. (TDK dvd-rw 2x)
I think it is a firmware problem and the camera cannot handle all dvd media out there. Actually in the manual is stated that only Hitachi-Maxell are supported.

I am another user suffering from the same problems as detailed in the above posts.
I have only had the DC10 for 1 month and I have lost most of my footage on different discs.
More annoyingly all my holiday video
Although mine has a slightly different problem, It cannot find the thumbnails and continues to constantly access the disc until the battery is dead. After connecting to the mains the message then reads 'Unable to recover data'. I have one disc which it is able to read but the last scene is corrupt and it cannot finalize the disc. I am going to contact Canon UK today.
Will let this thread know how i get on.
Is there anyway I can find out what firmware it has got ?

Hello,

After playing a bit more with my dc10, i found out it cannot properly finalise a dvd-vr. After the finalising proces my PC dvd-burner cannot read the mini dvd at all and the canon camera gives a read error after reinserting the dvd.
I also noticed the 16:9 mode cannot be properly displayed on my pc and our dvd player is unable to play it at 16:9 and will force 4:3. (even when 16:9 is manually selected).

I gave up. After spending DAYS trying to deal with lost files, reshoots and editing oddities, I'm sending the unit in for servicing along with a disk or two of effected media. Bet I get new firmware.
I found the service notice in the message above some time ago, however my unit didn't meet the specs. My problem seemed different too. If you are having problems with this camcorder, please do this: add up all the hours you spend trying to deal with these problems and multiply it by $7.00. At that low rate you will be surprised at how much owning a camcorder with probelms costs!
My experiences with the Canon tech support folks were not too bad, but it seemed as though they hadn't heard there were problems with the DC10.
I am overjoyed with the JVC Everio I bought (GZ-MG77U) about a month ago. The camcorder is not as inexpensive as the DC10 but the internal hard drive is an amazing idea who's time has come!
In seven shooting sessions I have yet to loose one clip. The video files are labeled .mod but are actually mpegs. All you have to do copy them to your pc and rename them to .mpg to get them to load into Adobe Premier Pro, Roxio MC8 or any other editor. Copying the files to your hard drive takes minutes, not hours.
That mini-dvd thing is such a neat idea. The media is cheap. The format should be usable on your PC. If it only just WORKED all the time. Sad to say for me, it didn't and it sucked up a lot of my time - but not anymore.