This may be a dumb question, but I just have to get this straight in my head. A am familiar with SD and AVCHD camcorders but not HDV camcorders. I was recently told that you can output HDV video to standard red-laser DVD's and watch the video in full HD on a HDTV. Is this true? If so, what do you play them on? You're not going to get HD video from a standard DVD player. So I'm assuming it would have to be a Blu-ray or HD DVD player? I was always under the impression that you needed to burn HD video from an HDV cam to writeable Blu-ray or HD DVD discs and play them on the appropriate player to watch HD video from HDV cams on a HDTV. Have I been wrong about this? Could somebody please clarify me on this.

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Ernie
Sony HDR-SR1 AVCHD HDD User

Yes.On an HD-DVD or a Blu-Ray player, or on a computer.You can burn HD video onto a standard DVD, but the playback time will be shorter compared to HD disks.

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Michael, Canon Elura User Pages

Thank you for your reply Michael,

I was hoping that somebody that has actually done this would respond and say how it is done. I see people say that it can be done. But I have yet to hear from anyone that has actually done it. If this is true, it could make a big difference in which HD camcorder a person might buy. If I had this information before I bought my AVCHD camcorder, I may have been more interested in a HDV model. But I was told that I would have to buy a HD burner if I wanted to have the convenience of burning a disc that would play HD in a HD Player. Since a Blu-ray Burner would cost another $600.00 and the media for it is really spendy too, I opted for a AVCHD model that can be burned to inexpensive DVD's with the burner that I already had.

I would like to hear from people that have successfully burned the HD content from their HDV cams to DVD's that play in HD on a HD player. And also, how much time can you get on one DVD at the same quality that can be seen when the camcorder is connected directly to the HDTV. This information would be very useful for people trying to make a decision of which camcorder to buy. It may have made a difference in my decision when I bought mine.

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Ernie
Sony HDR-SR1 AVCHD HDD User

There are still a lot of possibilities with various work flows using various software and probably some incompatability problems...



From thread: http://forums.creativecow.net/thread/162/865937
There are others, you just have to search.



Rich

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FireWire Survey

Thank you for the reply Rich! This helps to put things into a more realistic perspective.

I have tried to search this topic myself, but I can't seem to find any information on it. I even joined another forum and asked the same question a couple of weeks ago and have yet to get a reply from anyone. So I guess there aren't very many people doing this. I don't know very much about editing video. It has to be pretty straight forward before I'll even attempt to use it. When the poster Borjis says "The mpeg stream needs to be 14.1 mbps VBR (similar to one of D-VHS modes) and 720P", is this something that most consumer grade editors can easily be set to? As I said, I don't know much about video editing. Please forgive me for my lack of knowledge on this. And when he says "Efficient enough that it holds 37 minutes of footage on a single layer DVD-R (with no audio)", I wonder how much of a hit it would take if it had full audio. For comparison, I get about 37 or so minutes on a DVD-R recorded in AVCHD with 5.1 sound. These look exactly the same as if the camcorder is connected to the HDTV. So I guess I'm just trying to figure out when somebody says that HDV can be recorded to DVD's in the form of data files, are we comparing apples to apples? If not, I'd like to know if and what the compromises are, and if it's something that the average consumer would consider doing.

People come to me all the time for advice for what to buy because I am fairly consumer savvy. What I would recommend to one person, I wouldn't recommend to another. I don't have a pat "one size fits all" answer for anyone. Everyone’s needs and wants are different and I respect that. I like to know the all the possibilities a product has before I make a recommendation to anybody. I know it's kinda weird , but it's who I am. I'm just a product research junky and I can't help myself. So any information that I can glean from the forums is of interest to me. And I'd like to think these discussions help others as well.

Any information anyone can add to this, well, I'm all ears.

Thanks!

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Ernie
Sony HDR-SR1 AVCHD HDD User

I don't know exactly what information you are really searching for. The title of the thread you started is "HDV Output to What Media Question". High Definition Video (HDV) is a specific high definition video standard. AVCHD is a different high definition video standard. HDV is characterized as a format which is recorded on tape, specifically on MiniDV tape.

So you could put HDV on tape, in it's native format, you could put it on a Hard Disk Drive (HDD), you could put it on a "Data DVD". You can put anything on a "Data DVD". I use to use Data DVD's for archiving and moving documents, photo images etc.

Right now I do not see the average consumer shooting in HDV, editing HDV and authoring a standard Blu-Ray or HD-DVD. Right now I do see many people shooting in HDV and editing HDV and AVCHD is becoming popular.

I don't know. I doubt it. Not the exact settings. I use Sony Vegas 7 and there is not one VBR setting, there are several (maximum, minimum and average) and none include 14.1 mbps. The term Variable Bit Rate (VBR) will vary depending on the encoder manufacturer.

So, the setting I use in Vegas may not work well in another Non Linear Editor (NLE). There might be close but there are too many variable involved. If you understand editing the setting may help you to guess what to try. But it is a frustrating situation to try and guess what settings to try.

There are a lot of compromises and a lot of issues which can be argued. I am not an expert but I see some discussions which are just not based are valid issues.

AVCHD is a different format than HDV. AVCHD is a form of MPEG-4 where HDV is a form of MPEG-2. AVCHD is said to be "more efficient" than MPEG-2. I agree with this if your definition of efficiency is smaller file size. If your goal is to do a lot of editing of your video, then in my opinion HDV would be the way to go.

"5.1 sound" is also efficient and produced smaller audio files than the other common PCM audio. But 5.1 audio which is commonly called AC3 can be used in MPEG-2.

Again, anything "can be recorded to DVD's in the form of data files", not just HDV.

My wife has a degree in business, I have looked at business for many years and am amazed and have no clue what "the average consumer would consider doing."

I normally try not to recommend specific items to individuals. I may try and point them in a direction and let them decide what they really need.

That is what made forums popular "in the beginning". It has changed a lot in the last 10 years or so.

I don't know if that helped at all



Rich

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FireWire Survey

Yes, I can see where this can be confusing. What I am referring to when I speak of "HDV" is the specific format that is recorded to MiniDV tape. I was attempting to keep it separate from the other "AVCHD" format that is recorded to HDD,DVD, and flash media. I thought it would be obvious because when I read the posts here, people that speak of HDV are always referring to the MiniDV format HD camcorder, not the AVCHD ones. But it seems to have caused a lot of confusion for some reason as to which format I was asking about. I apologize for the confusion. The "HDV Output to What Media Question" was basically asking the question "what media do you burn your HDV content to?" Now there, that is how I should have worded it! Oh well. It made sense to me at the time. Looking at it now I guess it really didn't make a lot of sense to onlookers. Again, I apologize for the confusion. I just wanted to know if HDV users burned their HDV media to Blu-ray, HD DVD(probably not), or DVD. But this seems kind of like a foreign thought to a lot of HDV users. From what I can tell, most HDV MiniDV users seem content to just play their video on their computers, or directly from the camcorder connected to a HDTV. If they edit it, they just copy it back to the tape in the camcorder if they want to watch it on a HDTV. Or of course, just watch it on the computer. Now see to "me", that is a foreign thought. Watching and sharing my video on a computer or dragging out the camcorder and connecting it to the TV just isn't anything that interests me at all. Connecting my camcorder to a TV reminds me too much of my old Hi8 days, and gathering family and friends around the computer just seems well,.. unreasonable. The first thing I think of after I shoot a video is how fast I can get it to disc so I can pop it in a player and watch it on the big screen. But everybody's different, and that's why they make so many different things to appease to everybody's different wants and desires. So if "I" were to buy a HDV MiniDV camcorder, the first and foremost thing I would be trying to figure out is how am I going to get this video on disc? I was primarily interested in how you can get it on a DVD since I already have a DVD burner and the media is quite cheap. I don't mind having to buy a HD player to play it in HD. I figure that is just a part of the whole package. Just like you need a HDTV to display HD on, you need a player to get it there. And besides, it also plays your new HD movies so they can look their best on your HDTV. But I was getting conflicting information about being able to burn HDV MiniDV content to DVD's. And that was what I wanted to nail down for sure. That was primarily what I wanted to learn from this discussion.
Now this brings me to a question that I have never quite understood. Why are "HDV" format camcorders only sold as MiniDV tape cams? Why can't they make HDD versions of them? I see in the "Pro" world of HDV MiniDV cams that you can get add on HDD units for them. The HVR-DR60 HDD is a prime example. Why does the format have to change to AVCHD to go HDD at the "consumer cam" level.

Oh absolutely. That's why I ask so many questions. Some may seem like it's none of my business. But it greatly affects how well a particular cam will be accepted into their life and how much more a person will have to spend to achieve their goal. But of course in the end the choice is theirs. I just try to help them understand what they're getting themselves into.


Yes of course! You helped me very much! And I thank you very much for your time and effort to help clarify this for me.

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Ernie
Sony HDR-SR1 AVCHD HDD User

HDV == hi-def MPEG-2 on MiniDV tape. You can get the same MPEG-2 on HDD in the JVC GZ-HD7, which has 60GB HDD and records in three different types of high-definition MPEG-2 format. One of these types can be loosely called "HDV on disk", it is anamorphic 1440x1080i60.

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Michael, Canon Elura User Pages

So does this edit as easily as the HDV MiniDV does?

I wonder if the HD7 has a "Burn Disc" button like the Sony AVCHD's do so you can burn a HD DVD straight from the cam without going through editing software.

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Ernie
Sony HDR-SR1 AVCHD HDD User

Right now it seems there are not many, if any consumers who are authoring High Definition video onto Blu-Ray or HD-DVD media.

There are HDV camcorders and there are MiniDV camcorders. Perhaps a matter of semantics, but if the industry does not use the term, then I try not to,

Depends on what group of people you look at. I see many who convert to Standard Definition (SD) video. From all the samples I have seen the SD looks very good. With camcorders like the Canon HV20 below $700 it is an attractive camcorder for many people.

I was at a meeting a few weeks ago and watched a High Definition video played from a laptop to a HDTV. I know there is a large interest by some people for laptops.

The HDV standard specifies:

"Media" "Same as DV format (DV and/or Mini DV cassette tape)"

Go here: http://www.hdv-info.org/

Technically, if it is not recorded on the above media, it is not an HDV camcorder, regardless of what some people will say.

There are, and have been Hard Disk Drive units to record from MiniDV, DVCAM, HDV camcorders. Firestore is a common unit, You can also record from a MiniDV camcorder directly to a laptop via Firewire. I have done it several times.

A format does not have to change to AVCHD to go to HDD, that is just the way the market went. Probably a lot of factors which are not evident. I think HDV came out about five years ago. When you consider Research & Development time, using an alreading existing tape recording mechanism may have been the best solution at the time. There are or have been camcorders which record in MPEG-2 and MPEG-4 onto HDD.

Rich

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FireWire Survey

This really surprises me. If I purchased a HDV cam, the next thing I would purchase would be a Blu-ray burner. And then a Blu-ray player if I didn't already have one.

I was just trying to be specific to the "tape format" HD cam. But I can see where this can also add confusion, something I am trying to avoid, so I will not refer to them as "HDV MiniDV" cams any more. Thanks for the heads up.

Definitely so. And if you add the cost of a Blu-ray burner ($600.00) you still are out only $1300.00. Many people pay that much just for the camcorder. That's why I don't understand the resistance to buy the burner and author HD to BD.

I have done this myself to play my AVCHD video on my HDTV. My laptop has HDMI out so it is easy to connect. But it still takes some doing to get the picture to show the correct aspect ratio and fill the screen with just the picture and not a bunch of Windows nonsense. It's not near as easy as just popping a disc into the Blu-ray player.

Thanks for the link. It helped clear things up.

I would be more interested in a camera like the Canon HV20 if it recorded to HDD instead of tape. But I would also like it to be able to export it's contents to a portable storage device without the need for a computer. I feel this way about any HDD camcorder. If you could do this, a portable storage device like this would be a perfect solution IMO. No need to drag the laptop around.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produ...l#goto_itemInfo

My Sony HDR-SR1 is an example of this. It records in AVCHD which as you said is a form of MPEG-4, and it also records in MPEG-2 when it is set to record in SD mode.

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Ernie
Sony HDR-SR1 AVCHD HDD User

MPEG-2 is MPEG-2, properly written NLEs have no problems with this format. Some require converting TOD to MPG which is basically rewriting service info, but in any case this conversion does not reencode video itself.

Just to confirm what the wise folks around here have been saying for some time, the PS3 plays back breathtakingly beautiful HD content from a regular HDV m2t file burned to a standard DVD.

Got my console yesterday and the first thing I did (well, okay, the second thing after running out to the store today to buy all the proper cables I needed, which of course do not ship with the unit) was to burn the original m2t file -- the one that I used to author my regular DVDs and to kick the project back to tape in HDV -- of my latest project directly to a standard DVD.

It played back stunningly well, both directly from the DVD and after copying the file to the internal HDD. And using the optical sound cable made the music sound better than ever before.

So for anyone who still thinks there's no way to play your stuff in HD if you don't have a Blu-Ray burner... there is a way.

I don't understand... why would many people shoot in HDV, edit in HDV, and not bother to author in high-def? Why would anyone edit in HDV without burning to disc? It seems like a heavy task (system resources) to edit in HDV, only to burn a SD DVD? Doesn't it make more sense to down-convert to SD before editing?

I have a Sony Z1U, and I don't see any benefit of editing in HDV unless I'm outputting to Blu-Ray. Is there any benefit?

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Please, just check the tape.

What program did you use to burn m2t to standard DVD.

I am editing HDV in premiere pro and usually use Encore to burn DVD's.

to CameraguyPEI: editing in HDV will make it easier to burn BD disk's when burners and media will become affordable.