Hello

I will be recording a concert in a few months time, and I would really like to get a feed from the house sound board.

Now, I have a Canon ZR500 (MV900 outside US), which has 1/8 (3.55mm) minijack MIC input. What would be the best and/or easiest way for me to do this?

I know a bit (not enough) about direct boxes or 'pads', and have had also had a look at the BeachTek DXA-2S (which is a little bit pricey at the moment, but i know is a good investment) which will convert my minijack MIC input to 2 separate XLR inputs with volume control and a ground switch.

The sound board will have 1/4 and RCA outputs. Please be so kind as to explain to me exactly the easiest way for me to get a feed from the board - step by step (i'm an idiot when it comes to sound boards at the moment) with all the adapters and cables and how to wire them.

Thanks very much in advance

Alex Williams
http://www.youtube.com/alexwiliams92

Hello Alex,

You have several hurdles that will require you to do some testing before the big event.

1. You need proper cables. In this case, I'd get both 1/4" and RCA because you don't know which mixer output will work.

See if you can find a adapter cable with a male 1/8" TRS plug on one end and two RCA female jacks on the other. Get another cable with two RCA males on each end.

Get another pair of cables, 1/4 on one end, RCA male on the other. You can try these with the aforementioned adapter cable.

2. You need to find out the output level of the mixer from its various jacks. Mixers can be very flexible...and confusing. The last time I was on assignment to capture audio from a house mixer the connector was a 1/4" TRS and I was told it was line level. I use a high end mixer with lots of input and output configurations. The signal fed to me was not pro line level, it was mic level.

If, as you say, your camera only has a mic level input, that puts you at a disadvantage. If you feed it with pro line level or consumer line level, it will overdrive your input and distort.

You are now at the threshold of more complicated audio. While not brain surgery, without the right tools, you will screw up. If this assignment is important to you, I suggest you find someone who REALLY knows the mixer and has enough adapters, mixers, et cetera to ensure you get what you want.

Regards,

Ty Ford

PS: I never saw a Beachtek I liked.

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Thanks very much, Ty

This assignment is very important to me, and i am definitely not a fan on bad audio. Ok, so i've figured out why i would need those cables and that all makes sense to me. The problem now is that i and no one else organizing the whole music concert has any idea what mixer it will be or what outputs it will have...

I'll check tomorrow again to see if the sound guy knows what he's going to use (we're high school students organizing a High School Battle of the Bands concert, and we are going to rent/borrow the audio equipment).

If the mixer does not have a mic level output - what do i do? What would be the cheapest way for me to get a good, clean feed from the mixer into my camera?

Thanks for any help

P.S Ty, why do you not like the BeachTeks? Is there a decent alternative? The one thing I like about them is the fact that you can connect it to the tripod hole in your camera - very convenient.

Thanks very much, Ty

This assignment is very important to me, and i am definitely not a fan on bad audio. Ok, so i've figured out why i would need those cables and that all makes sense to me. The problem now is that i and no one else organizing the whole music concert has any idea what mixer it will be or what outputs it will have...

>>Yes, "eeek" indeed. There's a whole other aspect to this, now that you mention battle of the bands. A lot of the sound from a band comes from amps on stage and drums trhough the air. The mixer combines what comes from that sound with what he/she adds with the PA. By recording only the board, your mix will not have the same sound because it will have only what the mics pick up. To do it halfway right, you also need room mics to capture some of that sound to separate tracks. Then you probably need to do some minor time aligning in post because the board sound will be ahead of the room mics at an approximate difference of 1 millisecond per foot distance between the mics and the stage. e.g., if the room mics are 25 feet from the stage, you'd need to move the room mic tracks earlier on the timeline by about 25 milliseconds. If you don't, combining the board mix and room mics will cause cancellation of some high frequencies.


I'll check tomorrow again to see if the sound guy knows what he's going to use (we're high school students organizing a High School Battle of the Bands concert, and we are going to rent/borrow the audio equipment).

If the mixer does not have a mic level output - what do i do? What would be the cheapest way for me to get a good, clean feed from the mixer into my camera?

>>You'd need to add a line level to mic level pad to each side of the stereo output.

Thanks for any help

P.S Ty, why do you not like the BeachTeks? Is there a decent alternative? The one thing I like about them is the fact that you can connect it to the tripod hole in your camera - very convenient.

>>At your present level of operation, yes, but as a matter of course, as a sound mixer, I'm frequently adjusting levels during a take to keep them more coststant so the folks in post production don't have to worry about it. You can't do that properly with a box attached to the botton of a camera that's sitting on a tripod because; A. The camera operator is usually in the way and B. fussing with the knobs can cause teh camera to wiggle.

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Wow you can't imagine how many times I've tried to explain this problem on this board and others. People just automatically assume that because it comes from the mixing board that it's always better. In my experience it's never better. A drum doesn't need to amped as much as an electric guitar (unless you are playing stadiums) so any feed coming from a mixing board won't contain a drum sound that is the proper level. You can get a great mix with a board that has 2 mixing panels with one for the amps and one for recording but those are much more expensive and they need multiple operators to get it right.

But some groups don't have any amplification with certain instruments. A jazz band for example may not have any amplification for a trumpet because it is naturally very loud. If they are playing a small room there's no need to amp a trumpet unless they are into ear busting sound levels.

I'm glad you posted this so I can refer people back to it in the future. A bona fide pro usually gets the attention of just about everyone. Now I have one backing up what I've been saying for years. I know you didn't post this for my benefit but thanks anyway.

My best recordings usually come from a single well placed mic. I'm sure I could do better if I had more equipment but at this point I don't. I do record with several mics now but I generally only have one mic that is best suited for the enviorment so I try to use it and supplement it with the tracks from other mics. But until I have mics for every instrument and every piece of a drum kit etc. I will likely not have a substantial improvement over the way I'm doing things. I generally record a bluegrass band in a small room mostl of all these days. So my single mic situation isn't too hard to get right. We've worked on instrument placement for quite a while to make the sound better. I'm not claiming pro level recording but it comes out pretty well for what it's intended for.

King,

Don't know that it helps if I say it or not, but thanks for the compliment. This forum is made of of people from beginners to professionals. Some solutions are out of the grasp of some of the beginners due to cost or plain old experience. That's sort of why we are here.

Last year I was asked to document (shoot) a performance at a local club. I recorded two slightly different mixed mono tracks from the board to a 744T. The professional board mixer was kind enough to do that for me.

In post, I time aligned the audio from the board mix and added just enough of Canon XL2 stereo mic (my 'room mic') to pickup what the board missed. Slightly too much audience noise for me but this was a shoot I didn't have any control over. Without the board audio, the camera audio was typically muddy.

You can see/hear one of the songs at: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MaZg8yPs9aY

It's not well lit, just the lights the venue had, and for some UNKNOWN reason, they had a green PAR in the can aimed at center stage so when I zoom in on Karyn's face, see looks a little like she had some bad sushi.

That sort of points up what I'm constantly trying to make. A thousand little things go into making something seem effortlessly good. That's the goal. Finding as many of those things and getting them right so the technology and contrived aesthetics disappear and only the content remains. That, I think, should be the goal.

Regards,

Ty Ford

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This kind of info is what makes this forum great.

A few years ago my son took a series of courses in recording engineering at a studio in Washington, DC. Now, I've been doing some video and audio work--purely hobbyist stuff-- for a few years now and I know a lot of the theory about how stuff is done mainly in post production.

But he was explaining to me how they had to set up for recording a live group in the studio. The different mics for the kick drum, the snares, the tom-toms, the cymbals, the guitars, the singers. And I'm not just talking how many mics but different kinds; a kick drum needs a very different kind of response than a singer given the high pressure levels from the drum and the attack and decay characteristics of each.

And there's mic placement and levels and, of course, it all goes onto different tracks for mixing later.

It opened a whole new world to me and gave me a much better appreciation for the work recording engineers do.

Good luck.

Dennis

Omega Studios?

Ty

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Indeed.

Good luck.

Dennis

I know what you mean about trying to make hard stuff look easy Ty. It seems like I spend a lot of my time playing politics with people when I go for a location shoot. I've threatened to just pull out of shoots because I knew the lights would never work. Once I got it across that there was no use trying to shoot in the light conditions they decided it was a good idea to increase the lights afterall. If I had approached that situation in a different way I'm sure I would have no video from that event at all.

People I know seem to be harder to work with too. They seem to expect me to be able to get it right whether or no. I've had to coddle and plead to get a good setup just because they were set in their ways. Yet they want a good product from me.

You're certainly right about experience being a big factor. I've learned the hard way that certain things just don't work. I've had mics fall down in the middle of important shoots because the mount I was using just decided to give out after 45 minutes. I ended up using sound from a camera across the room on that shoot. Luckily the people there were easily pleased. They thought the sound was just fine and they wondered why I was worried about it. I think we worry about perfection a lot more than many of our customers do. It's a good thing too. :-) That experience made me start using as many mics and recorders as possible just in case. It was pretty embarassing to see the main speaker trying to set my mic up again right in the middle of his speech. I made some money though and I made some people happy that they had a record of the event.

Another thing that happened in that same shoot was that different speakers moved away from the podium and made presentations a long way from the mic I had up. I know I wouldn't have had any sound if not for the camera mics on that. Live and learn I guess. I set up every mic I have now even if it's an interview in my home studio.

The bottom line is that we can't count too much on one source or we may be really disappointed. If you only get one chance to get it right you don't want to miss out.

The sound on your shoot came out pretty good. I couldn't pick up on the spots you used the mic. I see what you mean about the queen of the sea green thing they had going on. :-) I've ran into stuff like that were the band's lights made for some funny looking video. Bands are usually stuck in the 60's when it comes to lighting anyway. It looks good if you're there but it makes for challenging video. If they do it well you get it right though it comes out pretty well. I'm not sure them pointing a green light at the singer all the time qualifies as them doing it well though. I had some interesting lighting going on at this event. It's a really short clip but you can see some of the strange light effects if you look quick enough. The singer in this clip looks green too but it wasn't a constant thing.

Nobody seemed to answer the original question, how you convert a mixer output to something a camcorder can handle through it's 3.5mm socket.

None of the mixing desks I've used has a mic level output, and all the popular ones that have output on TRS 1/4" jacks has them at a balanced line level. The only difference is that some have true pro level at +4dB, which is even hotter than the usual line level. What is needed is simply a DI box. We use them all the time to convert line level guitars, synths, CD players and computers so we can plug them into mixer mic level inputs. Plenty to choose from, some passive and cheap, others active (contain electronics) that are more expensive. All you need then is a simple xlr female to 3.5mm mono plug.

I'll throw in a few comments about stage lighting. I'm a production manager, and most of my work is in or linked to theatre - so it's live music, commedians, pantomime, that kind of thing. Stage lighting is always coloured, so it's important to get white light on the subject - followspots are great - BUT the contrast between the birghtest and the dim areas is usually too much for video - unless your camera kit has manual exposure adjustent. Followspots on autoexposure cameras mean the faces bleach out, leaving a white splodge.


This clip shows the kind of things http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zjifMUTZB98


You can see how the detail in the shadows is pretty weak. Sound wise, it's a stereo feed from the mixer, with two room mics, at the front, pointing back to the audience for room sound.

An attenuator cable should do that trick paulears. Or an inline volume control which is what I prefer since you can adjust the level to suit you. I'd say a 20db attenuator cable should do the job but that's a one size fits all approach and I haven't actually used one so I'm guessing on the strength. If your camera has manual audio level adjustment then you should be fine. You might ask someone who knows exactly what the strength should be.

If your camera doesn't have manual audio level adjustment I think an inline volume control would work better. That's what I use. The trick is to work out exactly where to set the ivc. Once you get it where you want it you might want to put a piece of tape on it to keep it there. You should probably try to put it somewhere on your tripod to keep it from being jostled around because they can pick up handling noise. A velcro cable tie or one of the reusable cable ties should allow you to tie it down to a tripod leg or whatever.

Radio Shack sells an inline volume control and they also sell attenuator cables but you'd probably have to order them in a store or online. There are lots of places that sell them online of course.

Thought I did, but I did make one small error. Now fixed....
You have several hurdles that will require you to do some testing before the big event.

1. You need proper cables. In this case, I'd get both 1/4" and RCA because you don't know which mixer output will work.

See if you can find a adapter cable with a male 1/8" TRS plug on one end and two RCA female jacks on the other. Get another cable with two RCA males on each end.

Get another pair of cables, 1/8" TRS on one end, RCA male on the other. You can try these with the aforementioned adapter cable.

2. You need to find out the output level of the mixer from its various jacks. Mixers can be very flexible...and confusing. The last time I was on assignment to capture audio from a house mixer the connector was a 1/4" TRS and I was told it was line level. I use a high end mixer with lots of input and output configurations. The signal fed to me was not pro line level, it was mic level.

If, as you say, your camera only has a mic level input, that puts you at a disadvantage. If you feed it with pro line level or consumer line level, it will overdrive your input and distort.

You are now at the threshold of more complicated audio. While not brain surgery, without the right tools, you will screw up. If this assignment is important to you, I suggest you find someone who REALLY knows the mixer and has enough adapters, mixers, et cetera to ensure you get what you want.

Regards,

Ty Ford

__________________
Want better audio? Check out the "Audio Bootcamp Field Guide" at http://home.comcast.net/~tyreeford/AudioBootcamp.html

Ty is right about showing up with the equipment to do the job. There are several pitfalls you can come across just trying to rig up a line feed to a camera even with attenuator cables or a good mixer. I guess I get so used to carrying around 40 pounds of adapters and various cables etc. that I forget that not everyone has them.

The main thing is to show up in time to fix any problems that might pop up. Most of the time there will be a sound check at just about any event before the event gets started. Generally it's around an hour before the event so you need to show up 2 hours early IMO. You will have a chance to get a feel for the room and be ready for the sound check because you want to be able to get it right then instead of waiting until the event starts because it's really too late by then.

Thanks everyone,

Its been really interesting reading all your posts and getting some 'inside information' from pros

Ok, after a lot of research i've decided to get the Studio 1 XLR-BP-Pro XLR adapter for my Canon ZR500. On the site it says that it you can get a feed from a sound board into your camera's 1/8th mic jack using this adapter.

Here are a list of the specs of the device
http://www.studio1productions.com/xlr-menu.htm

And here's the page for the actual device http://www.studio1productions.com/xlr-bp_pro.htm

The Studio 1 adapter seems to be the best compared to the Beachtek and Sign Video adapters. On the specs it says "Accepts Line Level Inputs (From Audio Mixers)", but now you guys have me worried about normal line level and pro line level...

I still don't know the specs of the audio mixer - but we are getting a professional sound company to do the sound for our concert. I've seen these guys doing the sound for another event at my school and they seem to be very well organised and very professional, so hopefully everything will be alright.

The only real concern now is the fact that my camera has AGC, and as far as i know it can't be turned off (Canon ZR500). Will this cause any problems when getting a feed from the sound board, and if so, how can i solve these problems? (preferably cheaply - The XLR adapter has already eaten up my budget :-)

I know that i have far from the ideal set-up - but at least the XLR-BP-Pro is better than hooking up a million different cables and adapters and trying to get a feed (i hope). Its also a worthwhile investment i think, and will also serve me well in my filmmaking too.

Thanks guys

Alex