I posted this under Robin's un-educated, poorly spelled and scathing summary of Sony (see Editorial).

PROLETARIAT Robin, You may want to consider adding a dictionary to your library. You may also wish to sound less like an unbalanced, and poorly read, editorialist with minimal historical understanding of Mao and his "Peoples Army". It is nothing new that Sony designs products for people who will buy them. That is why I, after trying to buy a Canon camcorder, purchased the TRV-950. Sony was the only company offering 3CCD (with high sensitivity), manual controls, OK lens, small footprint, for reasonable price. The only one. Panasonic has the 953 but you would shoot it in the head for low light performance if it was made by Sony. And, in fact, your review of that product moved me to the TRV950. Sony currently offers a comcorder to a anyone who wants to purchase one. From digital cinema cameras down to point and shoot ease. Why write some crazy editorial interlaced with ideas from the late 70's Cultural Revolution in China with regard to a company that has a product for every aspect of the camcorder market?? Makes no sense Robin. Careful. You have had a bit of success. You are young. You can fail. It is up to you.

__________________
Sony DCR-TRV950 [Mini-DV Vid](2003)
Canon ES-970 [8mm Video] (1998)
Canon Z135 [35mm] (1995)
Yashica Mat-124G [2/14x2/14] (1994)
Canon Elan [35mm (1994)]
Canon AE-1 [35mm] (1981)

The operative word is "was". Sony "did" develop some great products. The concern is a recent change in apparent market focus to the lower end. Likely this is economically driven, and a few high end niche products will continue on. The amount invested (R and D) into this smaller market will likely diminish which is bad news to those few of us consumers at the higher end. One way of looking at the editorial is that it is a loud and exagerated wake up call to Sony. The objective is to make an appeal to this decision on their part, and preserve the successful development of higher end products as much possible.

being sort of tired to hear that the low light performance of ... etc, I have this to say :
*a few year ago no pro would have accepted to shoot under 300lux (not 3), and I have been in a situation where a pro was shooting with additional light near me and my trv950, so I conclude they haven't yet given up on this principle.
*as seen on tv, in my living-room, I have never really been impressed by any footage whatsoever that was shot in even a relatively well-lit street at night, or say, a bar : the basics of physics are that the less light you have, the less colour you have, even voting on that wouldn't alter the hard facts.
*culturally, I was brought up in daylight : the great movie outdoors, cinemascope and technicolor. I still stick by that. I don't care a damn for moonlit movies, I live by day, not night (sorry, no way for me to put Mao in the picture here). The sun/moon divide runs deep into society, and I don't blame those who prefer "the night time for their cover"(Joan Baez).
This said, I wouldn't blame blame Sony or other people for dropping research on night/dusk shooting. The trv950, to come back to basics (and I DO believe we're straying in many threads on the forum) has an edge in the sunshine - (I don't shun sun, sonny). That suits me fine and should elicit more opinions than the poor low-light debate, IMO.
To add but another point in the same direction : no review I've read ever raises the question of the lowlight performance of digital cameras ... probably because they use flashlight when necessary. Go and see for yourself how the lighting is done on a film set, and you'll maybe stop demanding of a gp camera to equal that performance. Please stop (gr)owling!
P.S. I don't particularly blame R.Liss or anybody else for blaming Sony, I'm just asking to look into making the most of existing products as I don't think even ONE brand of products cares for coming up with THE best top and middle range product : they need us to change our products for their own survival.

Why are your opinions on Robins opinions so scathing? Just because you disagree doesn't mean you have to bash her.

I'll hand it to you for causing me to read Robins article on sony as I normaly just visit the boards and spend little to no time at the rest of the site.
I am inclined to agree that sonys' aproach to deciding what kind and quality of camcorders to make in the low to low middle end has been disapointing to me also as the years have shown them producing less inovaation and more basic pack models every year. While Pana and JVC work on giving owners a choice in the mid-low to upper consumer market sony has dummied down old models like the trv-17 to a less and less quality cam for the consumer .
Surely a bit of variety and inovation in the under 2000$ market would keep them in competition with the other makers.
KennJ

Remember also, that the consumer votes with his/her dollars and the squeeky wheel gets the grease.

Gents,

Regarding "scathing" wrt to my summary of Robin's perspective on Sony. I wrote with precisely the same tone she wrote with. Her scathing and insulting tone wrt to Sony.....I simply matched.

It may be that Sony was and no longer is.....I must admit to avoiding Sony for years because I could always get the same thing, from another manufacurer, for less money and roughly the same features and quality set. That changed when I sought out a camcorder that would give me serious access to image quality.

The TRV950 with its small footprint and good video broke way out of the pack at the $1600 price point. The GL-2 came close and some days I wish I had just sprung for that camera. But.....most days I think the TRV950 is a truly brilliant offering by Sony.

Lastly, I guess I feel that all companies do try to do the best they can. I am an engineer in one on product development teams. We never really sit around trying to come up with something stupid to trick people into buying. Yes, our products do end up having limitations that are the result of the optimization process of cost, quality, and feature set for the target consumer.

But.....Robin's tone makes Sony sound like an evil giant......even mixed in Cultural Revolution language. I doubt the Sony engineers that have driven quality and cost into the very fabric of American engineering (I remember when AMERICA was the place that produced junk) are in Japan right now trying to come up with a lousy camcorder to trick us all into buying.

I thought Robin's youthfully harsh interpretation was too harsh.

And responded accordingly.

__________________
Sony DCR-TRV950 [Mini-DV Vid](2003)
Canon ES-970 [8mm Video] (1998)
Canon Z135 [35mm] (1995)
Yashica Mat-124G [2/14x2/14] (1994)
Canon Elan [35mm (1994)]
Canon AE-1 [35mm] (1981)

Businesses, and in particular, big businesses, are, by definition, "evil giants", it is the nature of the beast in a capitalist society/economy. That is not necessarily a bad thing however. They do as they must to thrive and survive. A "compassionate" big business would not survive for very long. The good news is that market forces should motivate big businesses to produce/sell products that the consumers want, and therefore, result in a very good product to exceed that of the competition. If a company falters, the competition succeeds, and the consumer still wins. If the consumer can make his/her needs and desires known to the manufacturer in a way that conveys the sense that it would be in the companies best interest to meet these demands (ie in order to sell more product), the consumer wins again. It is when the system goes awry (as in monopolies/antitrust violations....example=microsoft) that the consumer loses (example=Windows OS.....yuck). I would not concern myself with bruising the feelings of Sony with scathing criticism, because they don't have feelings, or alter behavior based on emotion (just the bottom line matters to a business).

Hi cc,

I agree, 100%, with your assessment of the overall capitalist system.

Having spent the last 17 years watching various and sundry CEO's and senior managers (in the US) pocket large chunks of change while tanking the companies with poor strategies I am no fan of them. I do take the paycheck and put in a good days work for it, or try anyway.

But, I was not worried about Sony's feelings, rather, I was thinking of those who, like me some 9 weeks ago, would soon visit this site looking to learn about camcorders and what can meet their needs in video.

Had I, with my pro-Canon bias, encountered Robin's article at the outset of my new camcorder seeking, I might not have ever discovered the TRV-950. Her article would have buttressed my pre-disposition to look only at Canon.

I would likely have ended up with the Optura Xi, not a bad camcorder, in fact, probably a good one. But, I think the TRV-950 is better and am glad I did not encounter an anti-Sony global message upon arrival to this site.

I really did use this site quite extensively in coming from essentially zero knowledge in the camcorder area to the purchase of the TRV950.

And....at least when I first started visiting this site.....the reviews....while sometimes not thorough.....did at least contain some level of unbiased air.

Bashing Sony is actually unfair to the future camcorder purchaser. Because, some of those dumbed down, small, easy to use, Ok in low light, quick to focus, easy to download to computer, Sony camcorders will be perfect for some people. Heck, I might buy one just to keep in the car. What?

I need broadcast quality to video my Mom hugging my son after a soccer game in bright sunlight? Nahh.....I just need to have a CAMERA with me. A small one that fits in my soccer bag would be perfect.

Hey....I think I will go buy a dumbed down Sony with full auto controls.....now that I think of it.

__________________
Sony DCR-TRV950 [Mini-DV Vid](2003)
Canon ES-970 [8mm Video] (1998)
Canon Z135 [35mm] (1995)
Yashica Mat-124G [2/14x2/14] (1994)
Canon Elan [35mm (1994)]
Canon AE-1 [35mm] (1981)

I see where you are coming from. Perhaps a better way to put it is to explain that this editorial was a reaction to a percieved change in philosophy from a prior stance that had resulted in the likes of the 950, vx2100, to an approach that would likely threaten future development of high quality higher end products.

Very well stated, and likely valid, concern.

Thanks.

__________________
Sony DCR-TRV950 [Mini-DV Vid](2003)
Canon ES-970 [8mm Video] (1998)
Canon Z135 [35mm] (1995)
Yashica Mat-124G [2/14x2/14] (1994)
Canon Elan [35mm (1994)]
Canon AE-1 [35mm] (1981)

Good news folks. Robin correctered the spelling of proletariat in her original article (originally she spelled it prolitariat).

Bad news.....she removed my post from beneath her article!

What! I said something she did not agree with?

Yikes!!

__________________
Sony DCR-TRV950 [Mini-DV Vid](2003)
Canon ES-970 [8mm Video] (1998)
Canon Z135 [35mm] (1995)
Yashica Mat-124G [2/14x2/14] (1994)
Canon Elan [35mm (1994)]
Canon AE-1 [35mm] (1981)

Oh man, you are going on a black list....permanently!