I need more space to edit video...
I have one 4-pin firewire port and two usb2.0 port on my laptop.

1. I wonder if its possible to connect my Dv camvorder directly to the external hard drive instead of connecting both devices to the laptop ? (And eventually how that works... if someone have experience ?)

2. How is it posible to check out what transfer rate I'm able to get with my existing 4-pin firewireport (can I get 800 not only 400 ?).

3. Is there any relation between number of pins (4 pins, 6 pins, 9 pins) and transfer rate ?

4. Any recommendation for an external hard drive in the range 180-250 Gb...such as Maxtor, Western Digital for the purpose of video capturing/editing ?

Thanks for any feedback !

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Hawk774

1 - not with the "regular" computer based (computer controlled) external hard drives and enclosures. There DO exist "standalone" (no computer needed) external hard drives with USB2 and/or Firewire interfaces.... expect to pay very high for them. These are more in the "field and commercial production" end than home consumer.

2 - That's tricky. I haven't seen a utility to actually measure it (like many utilities measure your internet speed). Do know that external hard drives on Firewire usually run at 400mbps, while DV transfers from a camcorder, etc. run at 100Mbps. Of course, there is a LOT of excess capability for the 25Mbps DV signal compared to the 100Mbps Firewire, but DV is almost always run "real time". Even though a "standard" Firewire hookup gives 100, 200, and 400Mbps speeds, the camcorders will run at 100Mbps and transfer DV live at DV's specified 25Mbps.

3 - no. 6 pin Firewire is the same as 4 pin Firewire except for two wires that carry power for an external device. Since camcorders always run off their own power supply (battery or adapter), they don't need to have anything but the smaller 4 pin port. If your computer has a 6 pin powered port, then a GOOD* Firewire cable that is 6 to 4 pin will only connect the 2 pairs of data conductors. (*) CompUSA sold a 6 to 4 pin cable a few years ago that shorted the 2 extra power conductors to the data ones --> result was some blown equipment!

4 - That's a bigger "feud" than Apple vs. PC! Look for something with the interface you want to use. Some can have Firewire, SATA, USBv2, proprietary, SCSI, and/or USBv2.0 interfaces. Try to get a drive with 2 or more of these interfaces for flexibility (but higher cost)? Avoid external drives with "parallel port" interfaces and USBv1.1 only (without USBv2 capability). USBv2 drives can be used (at slower rates) on the older USBv1 interfaces. A faster drive will have a 7200 or 10000 rpm spindle speed rather than 5400 or 4200 or 3600 rpm. 8MB of cache is better than 2MB, but this isn't very important for working with one large file at a time (like video). If given a choice, go for the 3 year warranty instead of 1 year (I think all the major manufactures have dropped to 1 year by now). A more reliable unit tends to cool better and has a fan built in.

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Sony HDV camcorder info (FX1, CX7, HC3 HC5, SR1/3/5/10, SR11, SR12, TG1, UX1, Z1) -> http://www.SonyHDVinfo.com

Thanks for the feedback Kerr.

After surfing on Internet yesterday I actually find a external disk that was possible to connect my camcorder directly to. (This connection is called “daisy-chaining”)
If it actually is an advantage to connect the devices in such a way I don't know...Someone tried this ?

In my opinion, the pricelevel for a hard drive like this is not in the "field and commercial production" ... even if it was a bit more than I was expeting to use at the moment.

It was also quite useful information abot the topic about firewire connections on this site..I guess it is possible to find something similar at other manufacture'rs pages as well...

To check out the details about it, have a look at the .pdf files "FireWire 800 White Paper" and "Manual" (page 33 is about connecting digital camcorder to the external hard drive)...On this site http://www.lacie.com/products/product.htm?id=10116

It was quite useful for me...

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Hawk774

daisy chaining STILL needs the computer as the controller. The "DV storage devices" that connect over Firewire and don't need a computer are quite expensive (since a computer is built into them). This is not "daisy chaining" but "field expanded storage, etc.".

Actually, most Firewire devices can be daisy chained (each device connected in a long chain, one to another, with the computer at the end of the chain). Most Firewire devices (aside it seems from camcorders!) DO have 2 or more Firewire ports on them. I don't think I've ever seen an external Firewire hard disk without 2 ports just for daisy chaining! (USB works more in a "spoke and hub" approach and can't be daisy chained.)

Anyway, I'd avoid daisy-chaining a disk drive and the camcorder. Specifically don't use
COMPUTER --- DISK --- CAMCORDER
because the 100Mbps speed of the camcorder's Firewire can force the chain down to 100Mbps speeds rather than the 400Mbps speed tha disk can communicate with the computer at (if not chained down to a slower device like the 100Mbps camcorder).

You should have
COMPUTER --- DISK and
COMPUTER --- CAMCORDER
You can have them both hooked up simultaneoulsy, but use separate Firewire ports on the computer. This way both can run at their top speeds and the slower camcorder can't make the disk slow down.


Some people have reported that doing the hookup in a daisy chain will still work - there is enough capacity to still handle the 4MB/sec DV transfer rate. But I'd rather have it hooked up to make sure there will be plenty of bandwidth even if it isn't needed.

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Sony HDV camcorder info (FX1, CX7, HC3 HC5, SR1/3/5/10, SR11, SR12, TG1, UX1, Z1) -> http://www.SonyHDVinfo.com

Kerr is correct. You need a FW HD with a really good FW-IDE bridge (like an Oxford 911) and good HD drivers.

I have a computer with 2 FW ports, but they share a bus so it doesn't matter if I chain them or not. I also have a cheap FW HD that has a slow Initio bridge - the drive maxes out at about 22MB/s making it only about 2/3 as fast as my old ATA-3 internal drive. Slow that down by sharing a bus...and you get dropped frames.

On a previous computer, I solved it by adding a $20 PCI FW card, but now I'm capturing to an iMac DV that lacks PCI slots. My solution was to throw a cheap ATA-100 80GB 7200rpm Seagate refurb drive from CompUSA ($40 after rebate) into the iMac. I capture to the internal drive and then offload to the FW (to edit, render, and burn on a faster eMac).

A pro-type device Kerr mentioned is one like this, which starts at $600:
http://www.mcetech.com/quickstreamdv.html

ckilner, thanks for your finding a link to the kind of device I was thinking about. I was lazy and knew they existed but didn't want to go chasing it down.

Would you consider turning on your PM (private messaging here at CamcorderInfo.com)?


>>I also have a cheap FW HD that has a slow Initio bridge - the drive maxes out at about 22MB/s

Well, 22MB/s is about 200Mbps per second, so maybe they were using the 200Mbps speed of Firewire rather than the 400Mbps speed? Still, it is nicer to have each part of the total information flow path running fast - the end product is bottlenecked at the slowest point/part.

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Sony HDV camcorder info (FX1, CX7, HC3 HC5, SR1/3/5/10, SR11, SR12, TG1, UX1, Z1) -> http://www.SonyHDVinfo.com

Kerr is correct in that the stand alone DV recorders are a bit pricey. A 40 gig is about $1000 and a 60 gig is $1200. Quite a bit more than a external hard drive. But it would be handy and you could go tapeless for the 3 - 4 hours they would hold. I suspect that if/when hard drives get small (physical)/big (capacity) enough that we will see that instead of tape as a standard part of the camcorder. It makes more sense, less moving parts, less wear, or does it? Maybe the manufactures want to keep the current standard, they would make more money.
On your second question, if you only have a 4 pin port, the most you would be able to get is 400 Mbps, and if it is on your camera I would bet that Kerr is correct in saying that it is only at 100 Mbps. Like Kerr I haven't heard of any utilities that measure the speed.
To answer your third question, the 4 pin and 6 pin are both 400 Mbps type connectors, but the 9 pin is an 800 Mbps connector. Now that doesn't mean that if you connect to another port that the rate is slower it will run at 800 Mbps, since most stuff out there is still at the 400 Mbps (IEEE 1394 stuff).
And your fourth question, I won't get into, as Kerr said, it's sort of a feud on what is better. His advice is very good and I couldn't add to much to it.

I do it all the time and lots of other people do. You can buy an external enclosure with Fiewire, USB or both ports and put any IDE drive in it. ADS is one well know brand. It, and I expect most others, have two Firewire ports so you can daisy chain other Firewire devices. I use my camcorder and a Canopus ADVC box connected to my ADS with a hard drive every day. Works great.

Good luck.

Dennis Vogel

I daisy chain my Laptop-->Firewire HDD (7200rpm)-->Camcorder all the time as well, and I don't drop frames. It is quite convenient and works with my setup. You can always try it and if it doesn't work well, get a firewire card to add another port to the computer. My question is why make a blanket statement not recommending it when it works for many people. It doesn't make sense to me to assume it's not going to work and spend money on hardware you may not need.

>>My question is why make a blanket statement not recommending it when it works for many people. It doesn't make sense to me to assume it's not going to work and spend money on hardware you may not need.

There is not really a "cost". Two devices, two cables, and a computer with interface (usually more than 1 port on the interface).

Comp. -Cable1- HDD -Cable2- Camcorder
or
Comp. -Cable1- HDD
and using another Firewire port on the computer,
Comp. -Cable2- Camcorder

This is a problem in "architecture" or connectivity of what you have, not in needing to get more hardware. Why not tell people the most efficient way, with what they have, rather than say "well, other less efficient ways that won't save you any money might still work or might not". Try the best way first. If you still have troubles, then you go on in troubleshooting other things. If you do it a poor way first, then you're going to have to do it the best way before moving on to checking out other potential troubleshooting.

If indeed you only have 1 Firewire port on the computer, then sure, go ahead and try the daisy-chaining. With all that has been written here, I don't see many blanket statements though other than "It works for me to do it this way so it should work for you."

I have very few problems with Windows.... that's a blanket statement. But to be honest, I don't think I have a default installation of Windows in any of the 8+ computers here. Some Lindows, some WINE (Windows Emulators), some M$ Windows heavy tweaked with addins (Win98SE running with NTFS disk partitions), etc. So my "blanket statement" that "Windows works well" is quite an overgeneralization at least and misleading at worst.

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Sony HDV camcorder info (FX1, CX7, HC3 HC5, SR1/3/5/10, SR11, SR12, TG1, UX1, Z1) -> http://www.SonyHDVinfo.com

You are a great resource to this forum Kerr and my comment was not meant to take away from that. My question about the "blanket statement" was just wondering why not try the daisy chain route first. What I didn't make clear was that on my system I only have one firewire port (it is a laptop and most have one at best) with no USB 2.0, so I would have had to get additional hardware (i.e. firewire card) if I didn't want to daisy chain. If a laptop has USB 2.0 and a firewire then you could use both, and if there were two firewire ports all the better. So, I certainly agree with what you have said in your previous posts. For those of us with older computers, some trial and error on what works may be necessary. I suppose I got lucky and have been able to get by with one firewire port. I did have to get the external HDD though, as my 4200rpm laptop drive was too slow and dropped frames. But then again, I have heard from some that their 4200rpm laptop drive was fast enough...go figure.

No problem, Jonny3! (no offense taken and please accept my apology if I get a bit overwhelmed at volunteering.)

I'm glad you're system is working. I guess I am just getting a little "short" with so many questions (not just this thread) from so many people about how to transfer DV from their camcorders and using Firewire. I just don't see so many problems.... but people are undoubtably having them so I tend to take a rather "go all the way and do it the best" approach or I'd be bogged down tediously with many many many variations and trying to finesse each situation for each user. I like to help solve problems, but not the same problem over and over! Fortunately, there are many people who help a lot here - by no means is it all up to me. Usually when I am silent, it is because others have given such good advice that my own posting would detract.

Indeed, I haven't any troubles myself using WinDV or DVIO even on Pentium II-400MHz machines with old drives, etc. But I have no extraneous things running either taking up the fewer resources these machines have.

If you can "tame" Windows and stop TSRs, subprocesses, and "junk" from using your resources, your computer really should not have any trouble writing to disk a 4MB/sec stream of video data, whether to a 3600rpm, 4200, 5400, 7200, or 10,000rpm drive. Even PIO4 (non DMA) will work if you (and the Operating System) are not doing too much else.

But aside from repeating the same story "stop things running that aren't critical when you transfer DV", everyone's computer is different as is what they consider "critically important" like Instant Messengers, anti-virus per-file-access scanners, and things they dare not mess because they don't know what they do in their System.

__________________
Sony HDV camcorder info (FX1, CX7, HC3 HC5, SR1/3/5/10, SR11, SR12, TG1, UX1, Z1) -> http://www.SonyHDVinfo.com

You are a great resource to this forum Kerr and my comment was not meant to take away from that. My question about the "blanket statement" was just wondering why not try the daisy chain route first. What I didn't make clear was that on my system I only have one firewire port (it is a laptop and most have one at best) with no USB 2.0, so I would have had to get additional hardware (i.e. firewire card) if I didn't want to daisy chain. If a laptop has USB 2.0 and a firewire then you could use both, and if there were two firewire ports all the better. So, I certainly agree with what you have said in your previous posts. For those of us with older computers, some trial and error on what works may be necessary. I suppose I got lucky and have been able to get by with one firewire port. I did have to get the external HDD though, as my 4200rpm laptop drive was too slow and dropped frames. But then again, I have heard from some that their 4200rpm laptop drive was fast enough...go figure.

I wouldn't suggest connecting your camera through your external hard disk. I've done this in the past and encountered a wealth of problems from dropped frames (most common) to dropped audio tracks (once in a blue moon).

The number of available firewire ports is something that everyone interested in video editing should consider. Having at least two ports on the computer will make life much easier..

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Tony Fonseca
Managing Editor
Professional Video

As Kerr said everyone has a different setup. I do this all the time and never have any problems. Needless to say there are a multitude of variable involved and any one can upset the apple cart. You need a fast hard drive and you need to make as much of your computer's resources available as you can, as Kerr said. You also need a good Firewire chipset; some are known to be bad.

You MUST know a bit about your system and you MAY need to shut down some of the software your system starts up at boot-up and probably your Internet connection. You need to give your capture all the CPU possible. Capturing is a time critical operation, like burning a CD, and it cannot wait if some other process want the CPU.

If you take some time and experiment you can come up with a config that will work flawlessly every time. It just takes some time to get it right.

Good luck.

Dennis Vogel