Hi everyone.

I have read every piece of information I can find, and I am still confused regarding the 16:9 feature of the HC40. Could someone please tell me if the camera uses a 16:9 portion of the chip with equal resolution to that of the 4:3 portion it uses in the standard mode? That is, does it just throw away pixels for the black bars, or does it handle 16:9 like, say a Panasonic 953?

I know the output resolution should be the same for 4:3 and 16:9, but my question is if the camera handles the 16:9 without throwing away pixels on the imaging chip.

Thanks for any info you may offer. If my qestion is not clear, please advise.

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Jeff

Based on what is mentioned in the HC40's manual, the 16:9 mode uses more of the CCD chip in the horizontal dimension than the standard 4:3 mode, which means that the HC40 supports true 16:9 wide-screen recording (NOT just throwing away pixels).

This information is not directly mentioned in the manual, but if you are a careful reader you'll spot the following:

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Quoted from page 68:

"You can record a 16:9 wide picture on the tape to watch on a 16:9 wide-screen TV ([16:9WIDE] mode). With this function [ON], your camcorder offers even wider angles when you move the power zoom lever to the "W" side than recording in [OFF]."
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Read the last sentence carefully. The key words here are "wider angles". What this means is that when in 16:9 mode the camcorder HAS to use more of the CCD (at least horizontally). That's the only way to achieve a wider angle without moving the optics.

...BUT, it is a matter of degrees. Is it "TRUE" wide angle in using as much more horizontally as it would take to get "wider" to 16:9? No, like the TRV-33, this doesn't appear to be the case.

So, by using a "little bit" wider, it is a little "better" than say the TRV-22. But it doesn't use enough more pixels, is not "as wide" as it should be to be fully 16:9 without any loss of vertical resolution. Another camcorder with a 16:9 CCD would be better than the TRV-33 or HC40.

Would someone re-do the TRV-33 (with the new HC40) test shots done last year? Showing the "view" in 4:3 mode of a backgound and then the "view" in 16:9 mode of the same background?

I am pretty sure the HC40 will both get a little wider in the horizontal BUT the view will shrink like the TRV-22/HC30 in the vertical showing the reduction in usage of pixels. (A "true" 16:9 camcorder with a 16:9 CCD would NOT shrink vertically between the modes).

What is confusing (and I think on purpose) is Sony saying going to 16:9 mode is "even wider" and implying that uses "more" horizontal pixels (true) ... and not saying "how much more" (misleading) or that it doesn't go wide enough (tricked you into assuming it did!).

Don't be fooled into thinking because it is a little wider that they went and made it all the wider it needed to be to be "true". It's a matter of degrees.

Let's measure it and see. I'll be delighted if Sony really does put a real 16:9 capability into the HC40 rather than continue the confusing "little bit so people assume it is but not enough to actually be" technique of the TRV-33.

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Sony HDV camcorder info (FX1, CX7, HC3 HC5, SR1/3/5/10, SR11, SR12, TG1, UX1, Z1) -> http://www.SonyHDVinfo.com

Hi Kerr,

Many thx for the info - I think you may be right, perhaps I shouldn't have used the word "true". What I meant was that the HC40 does something more than just cropping the image up and down to generate the 16:9 ratio. In other words, it uses more of the CCD horizontally. How much more remains to be seen. But still, the "wider" angle contains more information horizontally, so it's better than just cropping, and it's not something that can be done in the computer afterwards. I do, however, suspect that the vertical resolution will be less in 16:9 mode. So it gains in H and loses in V. Now, in terms or how many *total* CCD pixels there are in the image... Same? Less? More? If the H pixel count is higher and the V is lower it still may result in the same total pixels (H*V). Would this then qualify as "true" 16:9 mode?

BTW, I've just received my HC40 !!! What a nice camcorder! It really is smaller and even more beautiful in your hand than it looks in web photos. I haven't played with manual controls yet, but in automatic mode the touch screen is very easy to use. First impressions are very positive. I've also used it to capture TV programmes to my PC using the ADC pass-through and the quality is very high - I'm going to need a LARGE HD soon...!

Need to go out very soon, but I'll do a 16:9 vs. 4:3 test on Sunday and will post the results (with JPGs) here. Stay tuned.

>>Now, in terms or how many *total* CCD pixels there are in the image... Same? Less? More? If the H pixel count is higher and the V is lower it still may result in the same total pixels (H*V).

VERY hard to answer.... Mostly because the pixels are not shaped and sized the same!!! A pixel output in the 720x480 DV output in 16:9 mode is much wider than a pixel output in 720x480 DV while in 4:3 mode. So pixels are interpolated to get the output, at least horizontally, while less pixels are able to be used vertically. (No matter what, in 4:3 mode there is also interpolation going on between the pixels on the CCD and the non-square DV pixels output. So... with a camcorder we are talking about *4* different pixel sizes and shapes! (a pixel on the CCD, a pixel in DV 4:3 output, a pixel in DV 16:9 output, and the pixel output in photo mode).

It is quite a bit more complicated, due to the interpolation going on and the digital/numerical noise that adds, than to just compare the total area used of a CCD between 4:3 mode and 16:9 mode. (area = HxV).

>>Would this then qualify as "true" 16:9 mode?

Everyone seems to have a different definition of "true" 16:9. I'd consider it only possible on a 4:3 camcorder using an anamorphic (physical, optical) add-on lens. I'd consider "true" 16:9 to be a camcorder that had a 16:9 CCD in it (which would result in lack of ability to totally use the CCD in 4:3 mode!!!)

>>Need to go out very soon, but I'll do a 16:9 vs. 4:3 test on Sunday and will post the results (with JPGs) here. Stay tuned.

Looking forward to seeing them. Please explain what you do/methodology! I'm sure you are aware of this, but may I suggest shooting at a wall, with some decoration on the wall (if not a tape measure!) running across and vertically so we can get some numbers (and how far is the camcorder from the wall). You won't be posting "still shots", but actual frames from the DV sent to the computer so the JPeGs will show the video scene and are NOT the "Photo Shot" mode of the camera (though include a couple of those at resolution options available, and one still shot taken with the camcorder while video recording - I think it will be forced to 640x480).

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Sony HDV camcorder info (FX1, CX7, HC3 HC5, SR1/3/5/10, SR11, SR12, TG1, UX1, Z1) -> http://www.SonyHDVinfo.com

Thanks again for the information - I agree about the different pixel sizes, it's almost impossible to tell how the DV or JPG pixels are computed as functions of the CCD pixels. Only the guys at Sony know that, and I'm sure no one will (or even can) disclose that info.

I finally managed to find the time to do a CCD coverage test, which I hope can help reveal a bit about what's going on inside the HC40. The most interesting result is that the number of CCD pixels remains *constant* regardless of whether you are in normal or 16:9 wide mode! The results show that, like you said and I suspected, there's more information in H and less in V. But HxV remains the *same* regardless of what mode is being used. I think this makes sense because then Sony can sell the HC40 as a true 690K pixel camcorder, regardless of how you use it (16:9 or not). I think that's what Sony means by the advertised "true" 16:9 WIDE mode.

I hope the info in the test is useful to shed some light into the subject. Let me know what you think.

That's a great test DrDV. I think we're all being too hard on ourselves, (and our brains), when we try to figure out what "true 16x9" mode means. So far, I've discovered that these Sony camcorders do NOT simply add bars and crop the top and bottom of the frame, but they record in a different format, (DV WIDESCREEN), which produces video that is the same resolution and quality as the regular 4x3 recording mode, just in a wide format.

As for the definition of "true widescreen"? Well, I think a true widescreen would be using an anamorphic adaptor, but I see no harm in recording in the "16x9 mode", especially when you're producing DVDs. You just have to know how to handle this format of DV properly.

T-1000

Glad you liked the test - thx!

That's true, we should be spending more time enjoying our camcorders than trying to figure out how they work...! Actually this crossed my mind when I was cutting & glueing the A4 sheets together...

About the wide screen issue, when I read about the HC40's 16:9 mode I initially expected the cam to simply crop top & bottom with black bars like you said - that would be pointless, it's so easy to do in VirtualDub. I'm quite happy with the way the HC40 handles it. Not as good as a native 16:9 CCD, but still better than just cropping.

DrDV:

I bow for your excellent testingprocedures...


You people make it really worth checking this forum out!

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Peace!

Thanks for all of the great responses. Great Test DrDV! Once again this forum helps me to cut through the marketing-style literature and reviews.

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Jeff

Thanks moonmood and Jeffrey for your kind words, I appreciate it - glad you found the test useful.

I think the 16:9 output of the HC40 is great. I only record in 16:9..

T, There's something wrong with that wide-angle lens! The focus should not be that varied. Particularly outdoors with a small aperature (bigger depth of focal field). You state it is a Sony, but the link is now dead. Can you edit to put in the model number of that lens?

I think there is another message thread asking about a wide-angle lens that wasn't in focus very well.

Thanks for the sharing the shots though!

And many thanks to DrDV for your excellent shots!

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Sony HDV camcorder info (FX1, CX7, HC3 HC5, SR1/3/5/10, SR11, SR12, TG1, UX1, Z1) -> http://www.SonyHDVinfo.com